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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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 Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: Web Design Discussion |
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| Donovan wrote: | | I would also recommend getting a media player, so that the demos don't take the visiter to a new page. It seems it is best to not ever take them away from the main message (your site). |
Ah but how do you do this so it's compatible with EVERY browser? Remember, Firefox users have to instal the Flash plugin, so that's not an optimal solution.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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chriswagner
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Jeff,
That's the second time, that I've read, where you've said that flash is not an optimal solution for your web site.. Just because someone has to install a plug in, which takes all of a few moments, and you only need to do it once. (of course if you had to do it everytime, install the plug-in each time you view flash content, then why are you even using firefox?)
And flash *is* compatible with every browser, only because there is a plug-in that is installed into each. It's just like how Java is. Heck, flash even works with Mozilla on SOLARIS..
I'd love to know what the history is behind that opinion, because not having a media player solution actually is not the optimal solution.
And why code a site for a secondary browser? Rather than the primary? Why not code for Safari...
Oh so many questions...
I'm not judging, I'm just so taken back by your stand... it's so very different from my experiences, and I think it's poor advice.
Please, show me the error of my ways.. really!
Chris
(Seriously I'm not spoiling for a fight) |
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Hart
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Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Location: Foley, AL
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| chriswagner wrote: | | Why not code for Safari... |
Ha!
I'm glad your not spoiling for a fight. I gather this could become a very informative and useful discussion for all of us. Can't wait to hear Jeff's response.
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Jeffrey Kafer
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Joined: 09 Dec 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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The fact that Brian couldn't hear the demos on your site in Firefox should be proof enough.
If the idea is to have the audio embedded in the page so as not to ruin the user experience, then imagine how the process of downloading a plugin would ruin the user experience. I'm not saying don't use Flash. I'm saying be aware of the limitations for some users.
As well, there's a very small portion of the population who use utlities such as NoFlash! to turn off flash animation. You probably don't need to worry about them as much, but still...
The ideal solution is to test for the browser of the person visiting and display the appropriate content. If the user has Firefox, then display MP3s to be safe. If they have IE (or some other browser with Flash preinstalled), then use Flash.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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chriswagner
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Joined: 02 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The fact that Brian couldn't hear the demos on your site in Firefox should be proof enough.
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Yeah, about that, I reported back after I fixed the problem, was that I couldn't even SEE my audio stuff let alone hear it in firefox.. because of an html coding problem with my IFRAME settings, not with flash.
And the total upside of that is that Brian will NEVER have to install flash in his browser again.. yeah!
And everyone can see my audio demos.. even on firefox 
My issues on that stemmed from the fact that firefox adhears to the w3c standard for html alot closer than IE.
Granted there are some limitations for users, and they should be accounted for. However the large percentage of people who are actually looking for voice talent have flash installed in their browsers already because they most likely deal with multi-media everyday. Because flash is everywhere.
And I point to a couple of sites that embed (with the same technology as I use) audio.. VOICE 123 and (at this time I can't say voices.com because (a) I don't remember and they are still building their site), big fish voice talent... and now the big daddy of them all... YouTube
With the internet the way it is, and the pockets of people who may have the urge to go with a lesser compatible browser, or a more strict browser that makes them happier... I say write to the largest audience you have, and those who are outside the lines, KNOW they are and pay the price by not always having the convenience of things lauching or working without putting a plug-in in, or having to turn of things like no-flash to see a site.
In a few years, these issues will matter less as more people are broadband-ed and the browsers make all this stuff a basic part of what they do.
I agree with you that *all* situations should be taken into consderation when designing a site, but implementing for *all* situations and covering all the bases can bog you down and make your site complicated to manage at best.
I think in re-reading this, my main problem is the use of the phrase "Not an optimal solution".
| Quote: | | The ideal solution is to test for the browser of the person visiting and display the appropriate content. If the user has Firefox, then display MP3s to be safe. If they have IE (or some other browser with Flash preinstalled), then use Flash. |
And really, is testing each time the page comes up to see if user has the right browser with flash installed, which version of flash installed and so on, the optimal solution? Honestly, these days it's up to the user to have the right setup... it's not like in the begining where the fancy stuff was so new and few had it.
Some stats from my site...
Browser-
83.33% IE
11.11% Firefox
5.56% Safari
Platform -
94.44% Windows
5.56% Mac
Java enabled -
100% yes
Flash Version -
72.22% - 9.0
11.11% - 9.0 r28
5.56% - 7.0
5.56% - 8.0
5.56% - 9.0 r19
Speed -
77.78% - Cable/DSL
11.11% - T1/Corporate
5.56% - Unknown
5.56% - Dialup
So if I can make my solution for nearly 90%+ of the audience, is that optimal? I think so..
Oh man.. too much mOuNtAiN dEw today.. sorry if I blabbered on.. I was buggin too much on this!
Talk to me!
Last edited by chriswagner on Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Hart
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Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Location: Foley, AL
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Just a minor point. I DID have the flash plugin installed. I'll break this off to a new topic. We've managed to hijack and clutter up Rick's critique thread.
Sorry Rick.
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Brian Hart Productions
Last edited by Hart on Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chriswagner
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry just was passionate about it.
Thanks Brian for peeling this off. |
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Jeffrey Kafer
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| chriswagner wrote: | | And really, is testing each time the page comes up to see if user has the right browser with flash installed, which version of flash installed and so on, the optimal solution? |
You don't need to check the Flash version since we do very simple flash things, but implementing a Flash check is super easy:
http://web.mit.edu/is/web/reference/guidelines/flash/example.html
But according to your stats, every single visitor of your site has Flash. That's great. I may be a worry wart, but I'd hate to lose a gig to that one prospective client who has a new install of Firefox without the plugin.
Don't get me wrong. I'm considering moving my reels to Flash based as well. and if someone has a problem, I can probably troubleshoot it for them. But again, I want non-tech people to know that there might be issues with it and the last thing any of us want to do is to have to provide tech support to potential clients.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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CarynClark
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Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 2697
Location: Fort Myers, FL
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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You got my vote for you can't be all things to all people. I know you guys are really techy... I'm not NEARLY as much as you all are... I work for a very large insurance co. on a web site. We develop for what the majority of users would have. You can't worry about everyone... they aren't likely as technical as you... and if they are, they understand that the browser they're using is in the minority and they'll switch so they can view/hear your stuff.
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"A positive mental attitude and having faith in your ability is quite different from being irresponsible and downright stupid." - Dave |
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Jeffrey Kafer
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CarynClark
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Not debating... just chatting, my friend.
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Caryn Clark... The Hip Chick Voice!
"A positive mental attitude and having faith in your ability is quite different from being irresponsible and downright stupid." - Dave |
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Hart
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, in a fit of uninspired haste that's what I named the thread. Is "discussion" better?
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Last edited by Hart on Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CarynClark
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ha, I didn't even notice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!
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Caryn Clark... The Hip Chick Voice!
"A positive mental attitude and having faith in your ability is quite different from being irresponsible and downright stupid." - Dave |
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chriswagner
Contributor IV
Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Ok.. I see your point more clearly now.
I agree, tech support for users of your own web site is, well, difficult.
That is why I test (except for that one.. that started all this) my sites on IE, Safari (love that mac-mini, cheap and sweet), Mozilla, firefox.. and as many platforms as I can.
DB just had a similar issue with one of her sites not behaving properly on one platform. Web design can be a pain as well as happiness!
Great example for the checking, and flash pro 8 has an option where you can have flash build that into your html code automatically! It sends you to get the flash update, or you can re-code it to switch to a non flash version of the site.
The only problem with having a flash enabled site and a non-flash is the dual upkeep.
This was a really cool interchange.. thanks Jeff!
(By the way, you're wrong... hahahhaha evil chortle  ) |
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Jeffrey Kafer
Assistant Zookeeper
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 4931
Location: Location, Location!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| chriswagner wrote: | | (By the way, you're wrong... hahahhaha evil chortle ) |
I work for Microsoft. You work for Sun. Somehow I don't think it will be the last time you say that to me...
Thanks for the stimulating conversation, my friend.
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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