VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD!

[ccpetersen]

Agree with Rowell here. This feels like an adult discussion and that many questions are asked and answers are trying to be given in reasonable ways.
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[Deirdre]

To address Todd's point—

There have always been premiums set for work that PLAYS in the big cities, but the setups were made at a time where all the work was locally-made, locally played.

These days, of course, it doesn't matter where you are— but the unions unfortunately squandered a great deal of time trying to sweep back the tide of technological advancements, as so many folks have said in this thread.

(When I first joined, I was told I could no longer self-produce audio programs of any kind!)

What we need as a group of pros, is real price guidelines which we can apply to our work, irrespective of OUR location.
Otherwise it's perfectly reasonable for producers to expect world class talent for next-to-nothing. to wit— a recent audition request:

45-minute special National Geographic Channel International.
It will be broadcast in global markets in fall 2012.
Intended Rate: $2,000 inclusive of agency fee
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[whalewtchr]

You need to make 30k in union work (four consecutive quarters) before you are even eligible for any "family" health care coverage.

Not really happening in audiobooks outside of maybe New York or L.A.

Melissa is spot on. The Union used to be the gatekeeper to major market work and rates. Well the "major market" pond does not really exist anymore thanks to the internet and technology, it's become a global market "pond" and trying to control the internet is like trying to herd cats.
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jonahcummings

[Gregory Best]

This is both quite fascinating and educational. Thanks to all who have taken time to contribute their knowledge and experience to this discussion.

A special thanks to DB for creating and hosting this wonderful corner of the web where such honest and civil discussions can occur.
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Gregory Best

greg@gregorybest.com

[heyguido]

[Philip Banks]

In 2011 I earned $402,001.82 plus H&R, M&Ms and VAT (Vague Additions to the Total). In between saving the world from tyranny and making life changing videos I channel Elvis (The King).

We live in a working world where background information can be accurate or like the above complete and utter nonsense. The real eye opener is the overwhelming power of vested interest, government, corporate, union and actor (voice over). Culturally not one of us is programmed to rise above this power.

Everywhere we look, including in the mirror, we see people lining their own pockets, doing no harm to anyone while simultaneously taking the moral high ground and rescuing kittens from trees.

Were we all to join the union tomorrow for $2 and the union distributed members with $5,000,000 each under an "Equal share policy" we would all shout hoorah ......

Fast forward 5 years

Me n the lovely, pouting and dangerous Bob Souer would have around $45,000,000 each, 4 of you would be blogging about pies, 27 would be doing something more useful than being a voiceoverist and the rest of you be would skint and moaning about the state of the union and how the "Equal Share policy" simply gave the rich VOs more money to take over the world leaving YOU, once again.. out in the cold.

The time for the Tolpuddle Martyrs has gone. The day I started behaving like a business, not an employee, like a creative not a prol ..Things changed, for the better.

On a pension note. I discovered a few weeks ago that my pension fund has been so badly managed by a specialist company that I will be working until the day I die because at 52 years of age there is no way I can amass a pension pot of a few million in 13 years ... Well, it's pretty unlikely. Are the pro's answerable? No ..It's jus' tough luck.

In the words of Forest Gump ...an' that's all I have to say about that!

[Frank F]

I did not come close to the fees gathered by Phillip, but I had a fair amount of business last year. That said, Banksey has it right. Treat VO as a business and DON'T work as an employee.

Moving on and addressing the issue; one of my top issues with unions is that many members are not treated equally. Those (like myself) who work in less populace locals (and RTW states) are fourth class citizens. Bargaining power is zilch from my area, even the Denver local does not desire to help much. I could move to a larger, union based, more commercial destination but that defeats my reasons for being where I am.

I have been union for 45+ years and in the past four years my union based income has decreased dramatically - due to my location. Finding union work in an RTW state is nearly impossible, union based gigs must ALL come from outside of the area.

My $ .02 worth, unions must represent ALL talent equally or they will continue to erode away the base members by attrition and lack of need.

Personally, I am saving my sheckles and hoping I do not get sicker than I already am. This way, maybe and with a lot of luck I will not need to justify my existence for the right to say I am a member of a union.

Frank F
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Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

[Lee Gordon]

I can fully sympathize with Frank regarding being the low man on the totem pole. The Hartford market is under the jurisdiction of the Boston local. And to Bostonians, any place Paul Revere couldn't have ridden to on his horse in half an afternoon might as well be a foreign country.

And if you think VO is low on the SAG-AFTRA priority list, try being a TV booth announcer. I was in the union for 14 years before AFTRA negotiated an increase in the session fee for us. And it was a big $5 a session, with another $5 increase the following year. That was more than a dozen years ago and we've never had another increase.
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Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice

[ConnieTerwilliger]

I was a LIVE TV Booth announcer for my first regular voiceover paid job - and because I had to join AFTRA, I made more money working 2 days a week than I did the previous few months as a floor director/relief director for the station.

Sometime soon after I left the station in '86, and the last booth announcer "retired," the job ceased to be LIVE and went to a local DJ who came over once a day to cut the day's book.

(And a heartfelt thanks for Bob and Melissa for so carefully articulating their thoughts.)
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[Leslie Humble]

What an amazing discussion. This thread alone is worth the price of admission to VOBB. A few thoughts as a pro union kinda guy:

In 30 years as a Radio/TV Announcer on stations from coast to coast almost always the coveted gigs were on the unionized stations. Better pay and harder to fire you. The harder to fire you a not inconsequential part. We drooled over the chance to be part of a union station. Further, I put myself through college by working for the UAW at a auto plant in St. Louis (after losing my scholarship from partying at age 1 I loved the Union protection. And more my father was union his whole life and loved it and felt protected.

Having said all this I wondered if I should join SAG-AFTRA. And it seems to me a very different kind of thing. All unions are not equal. For what Bob Bergen does and in his world it absolutely seems to need to be union. And I like that Mr. Bergen immediately realized that the hesitation of many in joining was not without merit. He seems an honorable guy.

One other observation. As a Talk Show Host I championed the public schools early and often. That included their unions. I now feel they protected the bad teachers as much as they helped the administration to be honest. Again I mention this to say all unions are not equal.

I like several things about SAG-AFTRA such as the pension, billing, and health help. Also that it marks you as a pro. But the observations of this forum of its failures is stopping me from wanting to join. The kindness of Mr Souer and Mr Banks in discussing their salaries shows me that $400,000 a year is possible without the union.

I think Mr Bergen lives in a different world. A wonderful one though. And I look forward to anthing else he has to say.

Finally, to Lee I offer this bon mot, my favorite Boston observation.
"And this is good old Boston
The Home of the bean and the cod
Where the Lowells talk only to the Cabots
And the Cabots talk ONLY to God"
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There are rules to the Universe. Learn them and prosper. www.HumbleVoiceover.com

[torikamal]

Full Disclosure:
I know very little about unions.

I live in Minnesota, and ALL of the voice work I get is from online sources. I win them mainly with custom demos/auditions.

I have been lucky enough to land enough repeat clients/regular gigs that I was able to go full-time audio at the start of this year. To be fair, I am also a game developer/sound designer/composer, but the majority of my income at this point is through VO/VA.

It took me the better part of ten years to get here, and through that entire time, no one has ever mentioned unions to me. So for me, that means I don't know anything about them, and not a ton of interest in learning about them.

To be fair, I'm a nobody at this point, so I wouldn't expect a union to recruit me, but I really have no interest in looking into them as from the discussions above, they seem overly complicated, and very unlikely to actually help me out in a tangible way. I started at the very bottom, doing bargain basement gigs, and was able to work my way up to where I currently am, though I am by no means in a highly secure financial situation. To join a union, I would need to have a compelling reason, as I can't afford to pass up the gigs I currently have.

Is there really a tangible reason to join a union, if one doesn't live on the coasts?

[James Philip]

I'm in a similar situation to torikamal, except I'm based in Spain. Very similar actually.

It's something that never comes up in my dealings with clients.

Obviously, there is protection to be had if things should go awry, maybe I'm unusually lucky but since 1996 I can count on one hand the times I've had problems getting paid, for instance.
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<a>Hello, friend!</a>

[COURVO]

Well, I'm glad to see this discussion I kicked-off months ago, finally come to full fruition. Thanks to Anthony for launching it again.

Both "Bobs", as well as Melissa and Deirdre are all people I hold in very high esteem, and I, too, am pleased to see the erudite give 'n' take here... I've learned a whole lot.

The point of Professionals v. Amateurs is an excellent one, and one that was addressed poorly by SaVoa...now, hopefully being revisited by World-Voices.org. I'm familiar with Bob Bergen's distaste for this concept (and how it would be achieved), and only bring it up to say there are those among us who are working on helping to define that line between pro and amateur, and even hope to fold it into a union-centric future.

The only other point I'd like to bring up is the frequent discussion of "turning" a non-union job into a UNION job.

Where is the manual for this? I've never seen any discussion on how this is to be achieved. No one's mentioned the language, the posturing, the argument, the pitch, the logic...NOTHING.

I can just HEAR the eyes rolling in the sockets of non-union clients wanting to know how much more this will cost them so I can satisfy my union requirements. Ooops...another client gone!

Anybody have a primer on how to "turn" a non-union job into union?

....with tremendous respect for all who have contributed to this thread,

Dave Courvoisier
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on your phone at courvo.mobi
702.610.6288
"I'm not a news anchor, but I play one on TV."

[Deirdre]

I don't know how it works with broadcast commercials or programs— the formulas are impossible for me to understand.

You can make any non-broadcast a union job if it's paying well enough.
You simply tell your client you're going to bill it thru a signatory paymaster.
There has to be enough for the end result to be at or above "scale" after all the union requirements are "backed out"

The signatory paymaster acts as employer of record— the necessary evil (read: scourge) of having collective bargaining.

If you do a job you would normally bill @ $1000,
Total: $1,000
Union Pension and Welfare: $108.83
Employer Contributions for payroll tax and FICA: $121.47
Paymaster fee $67.59
Net Wages: $702.11 <— this is above scale for an industrial read of a couple of hours.

To find out what a commercial could need, you'd have to call the union and ask what the talent fee would be for the market and time it will be on the air, then add another 45% of that fee.
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[Lee Gordon]