VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[Philip Banks]

A very musical title to a serious thread. it's really about our code of ethics when dealing with other people on work related matters.

I am becoming more inclined to adopt a position of "dignified silence" when asked about chances of voice over success, good demo or bad demo, good studio or bad studio. The reason? Because more often than not the fragile egos that abound in our business need a massage and only seek approval. If any one believes otherwise, think again.

Next song .... you're so vain you probably think this song is about you. In posting this I am not having a pop at any one or number of people here so breathe a sigh of relief- it really is just a general point.

Climbing the ladder to voice over success is very difficult and we are all at different points but one thing we all have in common is a degree of insecurity and we must address it.

My code of behaviour/ethics on here and elsewhere? To make others feel better for having an encounter with me, not worse and to add something not take away.

Just thought I'd share those thoughts, beautiful eh?

[Gregory Best]

Phillip, and any other pros on the board who may be rethinking their approach to feedback,

Maybe this is a quasi-support group for some. Maybe a separate thread or critique area for those who want an honest critique and points to improve. But, ... wait a minute...that's what I thought this place was! I was told by someone I know and trust in the business (my old radio friend below) that this is the BEST site on the web for VO talent to freely exchange ideas and get honest (sometimes brutal) critiques. I was warned to be prepared if I wanted to play with those that are the real pros I may get my ego bruised, but be better for it in the end.

I know I sometimes I do something in the studio and I think it is pretty good (Phillip, as you discussed in an earlier thread) until I listened to it latter. We are often our worst critics. That is why we learn to listen more to those who are experienced and knowledgeable about the business. I was told not to listen to friends and family on how I am doing, unless they are willing to pay me to work. They are prejudiced and not experts in the field.

I was also told to find a mentor who will give you real and honest feedback. I also have a friend from my radio days that has been doing VO exclusive now for a number of years that also gives me feedback and an occasional audition for one of his clients that is looking for other voices.

I am also fortunate to be training with some people who are very positive and supportive in their coaching style and bring a lot out in me (and others) in a positive yet honest way. I have taken one introductory class from another coach who was critical and negative. It was not pretty and not a good learning environment.

Phillip, don’t give up your honesty in feedback to others, at least not for me. I want the truth, not a sugar coated version of reality.

Gregory Best

[Philip Banks]

I think you and others have seen the point of this thread. If we can't be honest here, where can we be honest? But it takes strength of character to take things as they are meant and integrity to make comments or critique without hidden agendas.

I started this thread to open the debate on how we treat each other regarding professional issues. It's so easy to make an enemy without even realising it.

[VO-Guy]

[Deirdre]

No Good Deed Goes Unpunished

Unfortunately, this has become a the theme of recent critique and there are quite a few pros here who simply won't venture into the critique forum anymore.

The feedback forum is or COULD BE a valuable asset to everyone, heaven knows-- but some things have transpired that are so egregious that I seriously considered taking that forum offline.
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[VO-Guy]

[kgenus]

Phillip, "Dignified silence" is certainly not the worst decision when it comes to other's demos, but it's probably a better solution for the individuals requesting the comments on their demos....
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Genus

[Doc]

Bit my tongue as long as I possibly could on this topic. My mother always used to say, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"... now, while it wasn't she who coined it, she IS the one who introduced me to it. And, it certainly applies here.

In fact, so much so, that it motivated me to write an article concerning the subject which has been published and is on my web site. If you care to read it, here's the link: http://www.docphillips.com/article_0330.html

I'm not asking for feedback or critique here, mind you.

[Frank F]

Thanks for your thoughts Doc, That was a refreshing approach at disarming our "talent egos".

And, Banksey... keep 'em comin' my friend... if it weren't for you - some days I wouldn't get a good laugh... It's your perspective on life that challenges me to make my posts here a little more eloquent.

At first when a read a recent post by you, I thought "wow, that Banskey... he sure knows how to say he didn't like something", then I read further. It was a well-written tease I had been reading... and when it was over, you qualified the response with the words which stated the truth about what you thought. Now, I HAD to listen to the demo...

The words were right on target... mostly because you 'teased' me into listening.

You a Master Wordsmith my friend, please take the time to give your words their righful place.

Now, with that said, "Banksey, you sound like a toad croaking in a pond a the edge of a swamp... stay there..." (LOL) "I dont need the competition."

Frank F
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Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

[Tom Greenlee]

I for one would be very disappointed if the critique thread were to be taken off line. I asked for my demo to be put out there for critique based on advice from a member of this board, and I am extremely thankful that I did. Banksey and others were very honest with me (as far as I know), and the feedback I received has been very very helpful....in fact, I haven't been hardly posting at all because I've been spending more and more time practicing what I learned from all of my critiquers. I can see a huge difference in my delivery already as a result of those that took the time to advise me, and I am forever grateful to all of you....You really made a difference. As far as those that can't take the heat (I can't even understand why that attitude exists because our stuff isn't being maliciously criticized and we are not being maliciously degraded and humiliated.....that would be taking the heat.....We voluntarily put our stuff out there for professionals that are wiser and more experienced and with a trained ear to analyze what we've done and tell us how we can improve).....anyway, for those that can't take hearing something other than "You are wonderful"....why would they put it out there and ask for critique? I want everyone to know that I respect all of your expertise and experience and value any feedback you are willing to bestow on me. Someday, I hope to be able to do the same for other up coming artists. I deliberately do not critique anyone's material, because I have enough to work on in improving my own stuff, to feel comfortable with critiquing someone else. When I feel that the pros (You all) are providing me with the kind of feedback that says "Tom....you've arrived" and only minor things are pointed out to me, then I will feel comfortable critiquing someone else. I think it's a shame that people ask for critique and then get upset when they get an honest feedback. I don't want to see the bruised ego of a couple (I don't know who they are), ruin it for the rest of us that truly desire to be the best we can be. Thanks to everyone that has been so helpful to me...you all know who you are. That's my 2cents.
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TG2

"Communication without intelligence is noise; Intelligence without communication is irrelevant."

Gen. Alfred. M. Gray, USMC
Former Commandant of the Marine Corps

[Travis]

Hi Everyone...

Several years ago I was fortunate enough to find myself in an acting class taught by a fellow named Charles Conrad. Charles came to California from New York, where he taught for Sanford Meisner at the Neighborhood Playhouse, and had been sent to Hollywood by Mr. Meisner to help a studio out of a bind. It seems that a movie named "Lady Sings the Blues" was in serious trouble, because the person hired to do the lead, a lady named Diana Ross, couldn't act. (She went on to win the Academy Award.) I later ended up in a discussion with Terri Garr, who proclaimed "Charles taught me everything". If any acting teacher knows his stuff, it's Charles.

There was one kid in the class who was just terrible - I was mystified that Charles would allow the kid to remain in class - I couldn't see how Charles was doing the kid any favors. I was fortunate to be present when another student, one of the better actors in the school, expressesed that he was also confused about this, to Charles.

Charles responded with - "How do know who has any talent? Or who's going to succeed - that's up to the actor, and things over which I don't have any control. My job is to provide an environment where the student feels safe, so he can learn to be the best actor he can be." Three years later, that same guy had become respected as one of the best actors in the school, and had gotten several good parts in films and T.V.

Fast-Forward a decade. Charles has retired, and I now study with a coach named Steve Eastin, who was Charles' chief teacher at the Conrad Studio. Steve has an extensive list of career credits, which he attributes primarily to what he learned from Charles. "The two questions I hate" he says", are: 'How am I doing?' and 'Do you think I have a future in this business?', because I have no way of knowing."

In fact, Charles believed that, though it's often asked for, nobody learns much from criticism. "You don't get treated very well in this town as it is." both Steve and Charles were known to say.

When someone asks me for criticism, my usual response is: "Part of learning the art is learning how not to be critical of yourself and others.... And yes, your demo does sound every bit as bad, or good, as you think it does."
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Travis
www.VOTalent.com

[Drew]

[COURVO]

I suppose it's fitting I'm posting after Drew, 'cause he's an ND (News Director), and knows that in TV News for God's Sake, heads get so big that some talent have to leave the room to have enough space to change their minds. You get to a point where people tell you good things about your work even when it's lousy....cause the newsroom politics are so bad.

But we're talking aboutTHIS BOARD, which is a Godsend by design, by necessity, and by the good graces of DB Cooper, who is some sort of genius/counselor/VO patron saint/and all-around level head.

Basically, I'm not worthy to be here as a VO artist, but y'all have been willing to put up with me and every other noob that signs on day by day. That says a lot obout this place as a COMMUNITY of kindred spirits. Because of everyone here, I HAVE HOPE.

Beyond a doubt, the most valuable exchange that goes on here for ANYONE is the sharing of information, and the critiquing of work.

I'm with the rest of ya....if you aren't prepared to hear an honest evaluation, don't ask.

One of these days when I'm good enough, I'll venture a demo for real...until then, I lurk, I offer a few thoughts, I enjoy everyone's company, and I try not to wear my feelings on my sleeve.

This Board is gravy, a refuge, a santuary, a worm-hole to a different dimension of honesty. Take that away, and it dies.

Dave C.

P.S. Drew, are you coming to NAB/RTNDA?
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Dave Courvoisier - Las Vegas, NV
http://www.CourVO.com
CourVO@CourVO.com
Courvo's "Voice Acting in Vegas" Blog: http://www.CourVO.biz
on your phone at courvo.mobi
702.610.6288
"I'm not a news anchor, but I play one on TV."

[Doc]

Dave,

You have a large edge and something that many do not possess. You have a talent for writing as exemplified in this post!

And, I'd say you certainly qualify as a seasoned pro... and the foundation and your innate talent will prevail, I assure you. Not to mention your attitude.

I feel I'm a good writer, but I'd give my left nut to be as proficient at it as are you. I know that comes from your years of work "behind" the camera. And, it shall serve you well.

I'm proud to know you.

[Drew]

RTNDA? Heh. Been cut out of the budget for the last 8 years. I haven't been to one since 1998 in San Antonio. I'm not even a member in good standing. Aside from the parties, the CNN one in particular, I really didn't get much out of them anyhoo, Dave. Just a bunch of fat headed ND's and "insultants" strutting around behaving as if they reinvented the news wheel.

As for your nads, Doc. Hold on to 'em. You rite reel good.
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Although I have a full head of hair, I'm quite ribald.