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Speaking of SAG/AFTRA rates
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Art
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Joined: 27 Sep 2017
Posts: 78
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read that only 2% of voice actors do better than $5,000 a year! I originally heard it quoted by Jamie Mandell of Voiceover LA, but maybe he was quoting a New Hampshire voice talent by the name of J.J. Lawrence from this article. I don't know the exact origin of that statistic.

https://www.aol.com/2010/07/16/voiceover-jobs/
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Bob Bergen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The majority of union actors do not make a living at acting. But it’s been this statistic since day one of the union. The union's purpose is not to supply work. It’s to guarantee minimums, benefits, and protections for when we work.
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todd ellis
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Joined: 02 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The majority of union actors do not make a living at acting


see, that's the thing i don't get. i'm not trying to stir the pot, but i just can't wrap my tiny brain around this. vo is my job. do i like my job? heck yes! would i do it if i couldn't make a living at it? nope. i don't want to sound too cynical, but, dang ... i'm 52 years old. if my "big break" hasn't found me yet, i'll have to settle for 1,000 little breaks here & there.

i know there are folks trying to get started, working the day-gig & doing vo in the evening & on weekends - and i wish them no ill ... none at ALL. but if union gigs are the gold standard, and the majority of members don't make enough to live on ... what's the point? health insurance? how many make enough to quality for it? i'm not being facetious, i just don't know.

would i take the union job if it were offered? heck yeah, i'd taft-hartley the crap outta that dude & if the money were good enough, i might even join. here in the hinterlands, with my coal-fired microphone, union gigs are hens teeth, but, like a LOT of folks, i keep knocking doors down through sheer force of will, so i guess i'll stick with that plan for now.
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Bob Bergen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya know, Todd, this has been discussed over and over. It's just a generation gap. Professional actors vs those who want to get paid acting. I don't expect today's generation to relate. Today's generation is decades old now. I come from the generation of pursing professional vo professionally. So when I'm paid for it, it brings with it benefits, minimums, etc. I have a really good friend who hasn't booked a single vo gig this year. But he's made great money in residuals from past jobs, thus earning another year of benefits and a pension credit. I have a buddy whose broadway show of 2 years is about to close. He began applying for a waiter gig the day the producers announced the show was closing. Thus is the life of professional acting. I have tired like the devil to relate to today's generation of doing this for money. It's as foreign a language to me as what you say you don't get. Again, a pure generation gap. Nothing is going to close the gap. But I do know my generation is a dinosaur, and will probably be extinct within 10-20 years. I just count my blessings I got in when I did.
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ConnieTerwilliger
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started at a TV station in San Diego with a part-time staff announcer job that paid enough to vest and to qualify for health benefits for many years. While I was doing that I was also doing lots and lots of union spots and corporate gigs (AFTRA mostly) because there were signatories here at the time. The rest of my time was producing and writing and doing on-camera spokesperson.

I have been doing this for as long as Bob has (probably longer - 1975 was first TV announcer gig for pay), but I never was one who would take a day job just for the chance to land an acting job once in a while.

But, I never lived in LA or New York. I never wanted to get into acting. I fell into the job due to doing some radio in college and then some announcing in grad school where I was trained as a producer/director.

Different starting places. I DO understand the idea of wanting to make a living doing voiceovers - it really is a different animal - made even more different by the changing technology.

But it is still difficult to do so - I agree completely with Bob's statement about being glad I got in when I did.
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't have started in between two recessions, after one stock market crash, just before a banking collapse and knowing I would get divorced leaving me financially ruined for literally hours, OR on a Tuesday!

A man is about to start a 400m race.

"I can't possibly win with all that garbage on the track!"

The man with the Starting Pistol simply rolls his eyes.

"It's called the 400m Hurdles for a reason y'know!"

"My Coach never told me it would be like this!"

"Who Coached you?"

"Mark Spitz!"
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todd ellis
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

to me, it's just economics. i started in radio in 1984, did my 1st freelance vo gig for money in 1988, in the '90s left radio for publishing - then in 2002 left my corporate gig after long & careful thought (actually it was a "you can't fire me, i quit scenario, but i HAD thought long & hard about it). i had been doing freelance work at night & on weekends for a good while (plus taking vacation/sick days to record) and it had become clear that i was losing money working for the man. i had a family to support and vo seemed the best way to do that. it was hard & scary. this is the best job i could ever hope to have. but if it all dried up tomorrow, i'd have to find something to replace the money, not the ego.
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Bish
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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Location: Lost in the cultural wasteland of Long Island

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pragmatism is not a dirty word. The simple fact is that (like Todd, Philip, and many others here) VO is my full-time job. I have responsibilities... mortgage etc. I have a problem with the whole concept of, "Professional actors vs those who want to get paid acting." ... and while I do appreciate the differentiation in many respects (classic training, experience, type of work, etc.) I do have a problem with the concept where the traditional group of actors, who (simplistically) do the job and then wait tables until the next job are considered professional, and those who concentrate on corporate, elearning, or general narration work, are not. Presented this way, it's a pejorative.

Am I a professional actor? Well, by many yardsticks, probably not. Am I a professional voiceover? Yes, by any measure you care to use.

I went to an audition in NYC. While waiting, another talent (a Brit theatre "luvvie") asked me, "Are you legitimate?" I suppressed the urge to say what I really though about the question and just smiled sweetly. He muttered something about slumming between real jobs while I buried myself in the copy. Is this what we have? A rift between "professional actors" and VOs? Is the distain in which we're held that visceral? Oh... I booked the gig.

This observation is obviously presented in a slightly combative way, riffing on the conversation as it's meandering its way to no conclusion and just reiterating old news.
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Bruce
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Joined: 06 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The older generation of union members use the term “professional” to mean someone who holds a union card. Everyone else is not a professional no matter how accomplished they are. Sad, but that’s the way they roll, Luvvie.


B
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
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Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So THIS makes me a professional? Not a voiceover professional, obviously. WHO KNEW!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O_6xjYAtwU&t=47s
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Lee Gordon
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's as much generational as geographical. There are people, like Bob, who migrated from other parts of the country to LA or NY, specifically with the goal of making it in Hollywood or Broadway. And by "making it," I'm not necessarily talking about money. In many ways, that's just the byproduct. The "fame" component of Fame & Fortune is probably higher on the list, but still not as important as that intangible urge that drives people like Bob.

But there are a great many of us, including people like me who are older than Bob, who were never motivated by a creative muse that was strong enough to compel them to uproot themselves and head to Mecca, simply for the personal challenge. Many of us, including a fair few from the world of broadcasting, realized we had a skill that we could capitalize upon, that we could possible put bread on the table doing something we enjoyed, without necessarily having to deliver bread to other people's tables in order to stay afloat.
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Dan-O
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 17 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Bergen wrote:
Ya know, Todd, this has been discussed over and over. It's just a generation gap. Professional actors vs those who want to get paid acting. I don't expect today's generation to relate....


Believe it or not, Bob, you are of today's generation. It's your friends you described that are the dying breed in VO. There is one word that separates you/us from them: hustle. Just a few days ago, you were chatting up your online marketing here on this very board. You went out and found the work. You don't rely on auditions, agents, or residuals; that's a bonus for you. You have more in common with VOs in the flyover states than you give yourself credit. It's work ethic, drive, and focus today's actors need in order to break through the clutter.
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Bob Bergen
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I absolutely appreciate that today's vo generation doesn't relate to the the life of a union actor. I stopped trying to sell that and (or) preach that union is better years ago. Though I did give it the old college try! For the majority of those pursuing vo , it's an obsolete business philosophy.

But I still see SO many posts on SO many social media platforms of vo actors complaining of Fiverr, "national" spots offering diddly, actors begging others not to do VDC, etc. Conversations we don't have in the world of union vo. Now, we have our own issues, trust me.

When I did spend a ton of my time trying to sell that union was better, a huge part of my lecture was that there will come a day that the non union vo community will be preaching the same thing I am. It will be their own version of begging their fellow actors to not lower their standards. If union vo becomes the minority, which is has, there will always be the next generation willing to do it for less...and less. I predict there will come a day (it might have already happened) where the vo actors will themselves pay to do a vo spot. They will justify this choice using words like "experience" or "if I don't do it someone else will." Or, just the thrill of hearing their voice on air. No union actor 25 years ago could imagine anyone would do a vo gig that didn't come with P&H, minimums, protections, and residuals. The union was arrogant and blind to the advances of technology. And today's non union vo talent is arrogant to think their own standards won't one day become obsolete.

Traditional actors no longer own vo. I see organizations like VOAgentsAlliance and WOVO working so damn hard just trying to preserve and preach standards in the non union vo industry. These are good people who are scared shitless, especially the agents, as they see more and more coming into the vo industry and with one "yes' take gig that ruins it for everyone. Trust me, I can relate. This is just history repeating itself.

So now I've adjusted my strategy. I'm trying to change the ways at the union. They were a huge catalyst that resulted in today's vo industry. It's the union that has to change if we are to bring contracted standards back to just a small percentage of vo. I think it's possible. I've presented a proposal that would get the ball rolling. It will have a lot of resistance. My gut tells me it won't pass. This is my last hurrah at the union. I know I've said that before, but this really is it. If this doesn't gain momentum by the end of the year, I really am done trying. The union is far too vast to make the kinds of institutional changes needed to reclaim the vo industry. Each genre of acting, from vo to dancers, stunts to background, think the union is all about them. It is not. It represents all performing genres. And if adjustments are made for one genre that brings more work to that genre, but could be detrimental to another, the powers that be won't approve it.

And Connie, you are correct. You have 6 years on me! Next time I see you the first round is on me as we toast the golden years! Back then, who knew they were golden??!!
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob and Connie I got you both beat as far as union gigs. I started at KFMB in San Diego (the AM radio side) in 1974, and started in hometown radio a few years before that. I remember the regular booth announcer on KFMB TV... the evening weather guy? Bob something? He let me do a couple of live TV booth reads late one night. Somehow I missed seeing you Connie. It was a big AM/FM/TV company.


The good old days? In radio, yes, emphatically.



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Bish
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply Bob. I absolutely agree with Dan that you have the attitude of a "modern" VO with all the hustle that entails. I am constantly hoping that the union will address the many issue with respect to embracing the current (and future) VO environment. I know you are working hard to achieve this, and it's appreciated.

In the eventuality of nothing happening on that side of things, then the rest of the community will have to work even harder to preserve itself and not be buried in the race to the bottom. My mantra has always been that if you are good at what you do, and do it full time, then it should afford you a reasonable living. There are too many agencies working to make VO (at worst) a part-time hobby-job, or (at best) a tedious production line of low-quality, low-paid work.
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