VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[louzucaro]

The problem is that no single answer works for everybody here.

There's been a lot said here of the difference between "new" V.O. talent and those with experience who've been around for a while. I hate to be the one to say this, but I've heard some brand spankin' new V.O. people who are crazy talented and started getting work as soon as they started trying.

It's not about experience in every case...sometimes raw talent (which includes not only the person's read, but how they interpret the material, their work ethic, etc.) is enough.

And plenty of people are willing to work on averages...they don't mind doing $50 spots because the $500 spots balance those out.

There's merit to both sides of the argument.

One thing I firmly believe, however, is that price fixing, whether in secret or out in the open, is no good. That's not what this country is about...as has been said, it's a free market. The word "fair" has nothing to do with the issue of The Local Retailer vs. Wal-Mart...it simply is what it is. If a local retailer can't make it near a Wal-Mart, the only thing that says is that the particular market they're in is more price-conscious than anything else. Period.

Obviously Starbucks is testament to the fact that there are LOADS of people who will shop for something other than price. $6 for a cup of coffee?! My lord. But yet they flourish.

Also keep in mind that just as some people here would love to see the end of the $50 V.O. spot, there are plenty more who would love to see the end of all non-union V.O. completely. Neither of these scenarios is realistic or plausible IMHO.

If you eliminate either of these, all the low-paying or non-union jobs out there don't magically become well-paying union gigs...the majority of them simply disappear because the people producing them either can't afford or don't want to deal with the hassle of more expensive union jobs.
_________________
Lou Zucaro
http://www.voicehero.com

"Well, yeah, there's my favorite leaf!"

[Donovan]

Brian (in Charlotte),

I agree with you completely, that's why I said

"Once you've started a gourmet lemonade company, go ahead and charge $5 a bottle." and "What I will say, is that no experienced pro with a decent resume should sell themselves short."

Even the on-screen actor example you gave applies. If your are a fresh new talent, discovered on your front steps, (which by the way, is how Rosario Dawson got discovered) and you get a part in some blockbuster film...you better believe you're getting paid waaaaay less than the $25 million star. Think about this, Jim Carrey made somewhere around 100K (I may be way off, but it should be close) to do the first Ace Ventura. Would Robin Williams have done it for that? Nope. But he did the movie. A few movies later (Liar, Liar) Jim Carrey made $20 Million. Would he have made that if he hadn't done the "low-budget" Ace Ventura? I doubt it... at least not as fast. You have to pay your dues in this business. If he had demanded 20 million for the first film, they'd have told him to go to hell and got the next guy.

Now if Joe Cip and the like start charging $50, we're ALL screwed!!
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Donovan

www.DonovanVO.com

[louzucaro]

And that's exactly the point...the market works itself out. Joe Cip won't do a $50 spot, but he doesn't have to, because people will gladly pay him what they pay him (well, maybe not gladly, but they still do it
_________________
Lou Zucaro
http://www.voicehero.com

"Well, yeah, there's my favorite leaf!"

[BenWils]

Bottom line to me is.....supply and demand. The upper market will stay where it is...because this talent level actually has something most others do not, a very unique voice that can move people....producers included.

As far as the middle market and lower market spots and jobs.....the more "learners" and "gotta take this job because I need to live" people there are...the less number of people there will be that can actually make a living doing voiceovers. Just my economic viewpoint. Everyday....people are thinking about turning in the 9 to 5 gig for a $100 mic and an PC audio interface in order to make some real money in VO.

Just some food for thought before I sign out. Will doing a low paying spot and having The Carpet Barn or Larry's Bait and Tackle for a low rate really ever raise your game or get you noticed when someone of stature in the industry reviews your resume? My point....doing low quality spots is not my idea of the ideal environment for learning unless you are so driven you are learning outside of the gigs. I know that every spot can't be national level money or quality.....but know what you are worth and watch for those that will try to devalue you......it does no favors for the industry or yourself in the long run.

I'll add....work that pays $50 on a regular basis (such as the 30 spots a month) is not what I am talking about. I view that as retainer work because it is regular work. We all need it.

Okay, I'm done. I really am a nice person. We all have to look out for each other in this biz. Nobody else usually will
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Ben


"To be really good at voiceover, you need to improve your footwork and hip snap."

[jrodriguez315]

There is something to be said for the phrase "the money is in the meter drop". Wade Cook said that he learned that as a cab driver, money was made every time the meter dropped, and that it was better to take lots of small fares rather than waiting around for the big one. He ended up out-earning many more experienced cabbies that way.

At this point, I'll have to agree with Bill.

[Chrissy]

I'm also in the learning stage. I've been fortunate to get a couple of good paying gigs for children's web sites. I want to thank everyone for sharing their experience and knowledge with those of us who are just getting going. Each day when I read through the site I feel like I'm getting a free course on the various areas of VO work. Hopefully I'll be able to Pay It Forward.

cheers,

Chrissy

[Bill Campbell]

JOB ALERT!

OK. I've got a :30 radio spot for a Mattress store.
Need a male VO.
Pays $25.

Any takers?

Oh, never mind, Phillip and Brian have already bid on it!

JUST KIDDING!!!

Remember...have fun doing VO acting! It should be fun, and people like being around "fun" people. They will want to work with you again.
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www.asapaudio.com

[KaraEdwards]

I have a very regular client I do voice over and on camera work for throughout the Carolinas and Georgia. I always joke that if he wasn't so good to me I would cost him twice as much.

I've done jobs for other voice actor friends at a discount. I'm sure they would do the same for me!

I have a running deal with 2 local studios. I charge fair rates for voice over, they charge even more fair rates for me to use their ISDN or SFX.

Relationships is right. You need them in every business. I won't settle. However, my gut tells me when it might be beneficial to 'give' a little and when it won't be. Always follow your gut and believe in your exclusive talent and you will be fine.
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Threadjackers local 420

Kara Edwards
http://www.karaedwards.com
kara@karaedwards.com

[Bailey]

Years ago, I would go to a Barber College and get a $2 haircut. Sometimes it was good... sometimes not. But it kept the hair off my ears and my collar. As I got older and increased my capital earnings, I upgraded to $10 and $12 cuts. Now that I'm older, and hopefully wiser, I'm paying $15 to $18 to get what I consider a decent haircut.

Where's all this going?

The kid at the Barber College is going to do HIS best to give me a great haircut... why?... because he NEEDS the training to build confidence in HIS skills.

Does the Barber down the street or the Barber of Seville think he's loosing business to the $2 kid working in the college? Not in the least! I'll tell you why in two words... client base. That certified Barber is thriving on a client base that is consistent and increases gradually each year. The client base is secured with years of relationships. The $2 kid doesn't have that... and never will... if he never leaves the Barber College.

I think if you substitute the words "voice over" for "barber", this whole parable may make sense.
_________________
"Bailey"
a.k.a. Jim Sutton
Retired... Every day is Saturday, except Sunday.
VO-BB Member #00044 .gif" alt="W00T" border="0" />
AOVA Graduate 02/2004 ;
"Be a Voice, not an Echo."

[Bill]

This is very interesting, as there is a mirror discussion about this same issue on a sax forum I help moderate.

Musicians are complaining about "hobbyist/weekend warriors" taking gigs for $50 a man and taking money away from "professional musicians." when others are saying its either take the gig or not work. It's an interesting parallel. And as many have said, in many ways, it's implied value. You have to manipulate the client's perception of value.

I have no answers, but am enjoying the conversation.

[GPutnam]

I’ve been lurking around this forum for quite some time, but wasn’t compelled to register and comment until this thread got going. The talent fee discussion can be very broad, with a variety of opinions, as reflected here. Here’s my input, for what it’s worth.

I’m in my early 40’s. I started in radio 22 years ago and I’ve pretty much done it all, learning the business from the bottom up, with the standard low pay, long hours and lack of appreciation. I loved the business and have few regrets. I also spent some time in the Cable TV industry. Not a happy, pleasant working environment but it did give me a good view into the production operations there. I’m a decent voice-talent with a small client list. I won’t kid myself to believe that I will ever be a GREAT talent, as I just don’t have the voice, but I hold my own and I can certainly recognize the difference between a great v/o and bad one, a great script and a terrible one.

When it comes to rates, I think everyone should quote what feels comfortable for them and their experience level and skills. If you can get the high-end rates consistently, then bravo to you, but the majority of us working talents can’t. I really dislike hearing statements like “The trick is to educate the client as to WHY they should pay more.” No insult meant, but frankly, I think that’s a naïve statement. Most clients aren’t interested in being “educated,” and won’t take the time to listen to what you have to say. They have a job to do and their goal is to get it done as quickly, effectively and affordably as possible. Just like the next guy.

I’m willing to take lower fees from reputable clients with consistent work who appreciate me and value my skills and customer service, over agonizing, fighting, scratching and clawing to get the “big” rate. I’m consistently busy and I pay the bills. I’m proud of the work I do and that’s saying a lot in this world today.

As far as criticizing the many clients who have low budgets, for the most part, I think that’s unfair. Yes, many clients take advantage and you should call them on it. But the rest of them are often a part of the corporate culture with layers of decision makers and you just aren’t going to get more money out of them. The small TV stations, cable groups, small radio, and small agencies either can’t or won’t pay more. Talents holding their ground and insisting that everyone ask for higher rates isn’t going to change any of that. I’d rather stay busy than wait around, wondering when the next job is coming, at the rate that I think I deserve. Plus, there are some really nice, really creative, really experienced producers in these environments, working very hard, just trying to make it all come together. I work with some awesome people, who are putting in some very long hours, trying to be creative, and who are really grateful for good v/o’s, and I know they aren’t making much money either.

Why not look at it differently? The small business guy, who is working his tail off just to survive, needs to advertise. So he goes to the provider that can offer the most affordable option and he hopes that he’ll get a commercial message that actually helps him succeed. I enjoy being a part of that process. I believe in small business! I know that the audio that I send to the cable companies does sound good. I get personal satisfaction from helping the little guy. There’s more to this life than just making money. And, when you pencil it all out and see what that dry :30 for $50 (or even $30) actually ends-up being per hour, the money is pretty darned good. I mean really…what does it actually take in time and effort for any of us to crank out a dry read on a cable :30? Pretty good money for the effort involved!!

So, I’ll continue to be one of the “bottom feeders” who accepts lower rates, and I’ll take pride in the fact that I’m independent and doing a great job in an industry that I still love.

[bobsouer]

GPutnam, (sorry, but you didn't leave a name)

Very well said.

And welcome to the VO-BB! Since you've been lurking for a while, you know you're in for a fun ride while you're here.
_________________
Be well,
Bob Souer (just think of lemons)
The second nicest guy in voiceover.
+1-724-613-2749
Source Connect, phone patch, pony express

[dagoldenknight86]

I like what the one fellow said about the hair cuts for $2.00.

I've been in radio for 3 years. I started off at a 1kw DAY LIGHT ONLY AM station in the middle of cow country in upstate NY. Our signal barely made it into the Albany market. I was 17 when I went to the radio station and said I wanted to have a show. The Operation Manager (now a good friend) smiled at me, handed me a broom and asked me to clean the radio station. My pay? Zero. After 3 months I became the production director and a year later I work for a large Christian Radio Network that covers 3 states and has very good numbers. In fact one of my shows was #3 in the market in our target (25-54F).

If it wasn't for the low paying job I wouldn't have made it into the media industry because no one was going to pay big bucks to a kid (or anything starting off). I worked my butt off and now make a decent living for someone of my age. I currently do voice over work for about 30-50 bucks a pop. Am I thrilled at that? No. But after pratice and hard work I won't have to take those jobs. Till then it helps with bills, and a wife thats in college.

I can't see the low paying jobs effecting full time voice artists. Now if DLF was charging 30 bucks for a voice over, we're all screwed lol. But we all know what's not going to happen

[Moe Egan]

What a great thread, lots of great insight and info to absorb. I TOTALLY agree with the importance of relationships,

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned by anyone. Something my dad (who was a marketing VP years ago) taught me, about having big clients and little clients, a real mix. And for some reason, it works. When the big guns are quiet I appreciate those steady smaller jobs that keep the bills paid on quiet weeks.

My work is pretty evenly split between commercials, MOH and narration. I do have a few clients who I do work for "on the cheap", they are primarily MOH clients. They are my "bread and butter". And I enjoy working with them. I think Donovan was very articulate about the need to take small jobs when you're just starting out. It does kill me that there are spots airing on a local channel that I voiced 10 years ago (not an exaggeration)....and no I've not gotten any additional fees for them (non union)

We sell something very ethereal.....our voices. My clients understand computers, financial services, retail, education...they don't understand how we do what we do...until we educate them. I found the same to be true when I was doing PR, clients thought they could order what page of the paper their coverage was going to be on, There was a learning curve then about paid media vs. earned media. Clients don't know what makes a great voice, they just know it when they hear it.... like great art. Why is one painting worth millions of dollars and another $2.50 at a yard sale? Lasting value, the artist who painted it, etc etc. The value is determined by what the art collector is willing to pay. Same for us.

Someone else mentioned earlier too that we each must find our own level in this business... When I had the chance to speak with Don Lafontaine, (I still giggle when I say that), I said to him that he was the 4 Star General in this VO army. He's the tip of the spear. In the VO army, I am a staff sgt. I don't want to move out of NH, not to LA, NY, not even to Boston. But I am making a very decent wage, paying my mortgage and feeding my family doing voice work. I am contributing a valuable commodity to some very significant companies, and some really cool small start ups, and I do a lot of pro bono work for causes I believe in. After meeting DLF, getting the picture and shaking his hand, he saluted me (talk about your out of body experience)..and then he said the coolest thing"Carry on Sarge, you're doing great." Wow. Yea. I guess I am.

my .06 cents
moe
_________________
Moe Egan
i want to be the voice in your head.
~~~~~

[robert jadah]

Sorry, but the $2 haircut parable and the ringing claims of $30 per spot "and proud of it" don't cut it.
The $2 barbers know they aren't ready for the big chair yet. They're not ready to snip real dos.

If that's your VO POV, go for it.
But if you trust your ability and value this craft, but still Chat for Scat, then you're devaluating yourself.
It's the difference between being a (clean version alert, clean version alert) sweat suit and an Armani: both do the same thing, but one gets taken to the cleaners more often. (end of clean version alert)
(sigh)