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VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!
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scottreyns
Contributor
Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 35
Location: San Francisco, CA
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 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Deirdre wrote: | | I converted a pantry. |
Nice. Yeah, it seems just about anything can be converted into a cool space if one does it right...
"Hey, where are my cans?"
"Next to the canned peaches."
(ba-dump-bump, PSSSHHHHH!... sorry, sorry...)
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Scott Reyns, voice talent serving major metros (San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York) and beyond |
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asnively
Triple G
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 3204
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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"Where's the popcorn?"
"Under the pop screen."
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Amy Snively
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Rob Ellis
M&M
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2385
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Mike Sommer wrote
| Quote: | | but with bass traps made from rigid insulation one can increase the bass efficiency of the trap without sucking out all the highs. |
there is still some boxiness that has to be addressed (the LENRDS seemed to address the boxiness, but also sucked the life out)
So, would ATS 4" panels across the corners, almost floor to ceiling, be a better alternative?
Or would it be better to simply cover the wall space comprising the corners, instead of just putting one panel across the corner in the manner of a bass trap? |
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Let me state this prior to addressing previous information posted: "I know what I suggest flies in face of "studio theory", but I speak from experience not from ideas presented in books on studio design".
The problem you describe is inherent in Small Room Recording Areas (SRRA's). Instead of adding more broadband absorbers consider creating a diffuser; then placing the element behind the direction you are speaking toward.
Kara and MCM ,please take note of the following information regarding your "booth" builds or future builds.
In this case; a reflector will breakup much of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level harmonics (when tuned properly) and keep the area "A-live", not too LIVE.
A properly tuned SRRA is not DEAD (or anechoic) either; but has presence to keep the SRRA sounding full - not muffled or stifled (or has been suggested - "... had the "life" sucked out of it").
One of the biggest problems in an SRRA for VO is boom-iness. The size and often square or rectangular shape is the culprit. Many folks who design vocal or instrument recording arenas will add bass traps or other materials to absorb the sound energy. These "traps" are undesirable acoustically as they create problems which then need to be resolved with more panels and more reflectors which then need more panels and reflectors to alleviate the problems created from the correction the products were supposed to resolve.
An UN-square room with non-90 degree angles (walls and ceiling) in front of the VO talent (or vocalist) with a DIFFUSER equal to 1/4 of the area of the flat part of the front wall (wall in front of the VO artist) is desired. The areas which create the non-90 degree angles (wall and ceiling-to-wall/ or "front wall") MAY be best served with broadband acoustic absorbers or LENRD's - NOT bass traps. Side walls may have acoustic panels - depending upon the dimensions of the "booth".
As I have pointed out in prior posts - Auralex is (at best) a Broadband absorber (mainly mid's and high frequency absorption) when installed properly.
Auralex has agreed and stated several times in their research - " best placement is the amount in inches of thickness of the foam FROM the wall or hard backing" for their product. This means a designer of small booth must create a frame using acoustically transparent material to hold the foam panels away from the wall the distance of the thickness of the foam panel (i.e.: if one uses 2" foam or 703/702 - then the back side of the panel should have an air space of two inches from the wall to which it is attached).
Since "space" in a small booth is a premium commodity - the use of DIFFUSER/ABSORBERS which can be tuned to the SRRA would be desirable over the use of foam (broadband) absorbers.
(Email me privately and I will send you a diagram of a simple Helmholtz Resonator/diffuser) and simple instructions to "tune" one to your area.
Diffusers and/or Reflectors are a good choice for the SRRA AND for the listening area where the VO artist edits/produces/creates/posts the product.
Opposing opinions are usually listened to in the manner in which they are presented.
Good luck on your SRRA builds.
Frank F
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Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com
Last edited by Frank F on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:42 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Mike Sommer
A Hundred Dozen
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 1222
Location: Boss Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Rob Ellis wrote: | there is still some boxiness that has to be addressed (the LENRDS seemed to address the boxiness, but also sucked the life out).......
Or would it be better to simply cover the wall space comprising the corners, instead of just putting one panel across the corner in the manner of a bass trap? |
YES.
I believe that's what a suggested originally. Any exposed wall will resonate and reflect. Often times just going corner to corner is enough to control bass.
If you put corner bass trap panels up, it's going to take up a lot of real estate. You're also going to need about 6-inch thick panel to really be effective (technically).
Do you have a cloud on the ceiling?
Post some pictures so I can see what's going on.
I'm also going to say I'm not a big fan of ATS panels. They are good for general DIY home treatment, but when you need to work with custom sizes, and costume membrane adjustments, your better off making your own panels with 703 or Insul-Shield.
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Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong. |
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Jeffrey Kafer
Assistant Zookeeper
Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 4931
Location: Location, Location!
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 10:59 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't mind building some 703 panels myself since i can custom fit them to the walls. Are there any simple instructions as to the best way to make them?
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Jeff
http://JeffreyKafer.com
Voice-overload Web comic: http://voice-overload.com |
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Mike Sommer
A Hundred Dozen
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 1222
Location: Boss Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Frank.
Yes, a properly tuned room is not a dead room, rather it should be tight and focused so that the performer is a single sound source, with no dead spots and ear tickling harmonic clarity. Though I do enjoy the sound of an active room that allows the voice to bloom, the trend for a dryer room has been in vogue to allow for the effects to be added in post.
We must also realize that the full effectiveness of diffusion is not realized until 5-feet from the diffuser. Auralex is diffusion with absorption, and therefor should be reserved for rooms larger than 1500 cubic feet.
In smaller rooms, under 1500 cubic feet, absorption should be applied first to remove the rooms resonance, reflections and the build up of bass frequencies. Once that is under control, then you can put the revealing highs back in, in a controlled manner, with either with FRK, or helmholzt resonators on the bass traps. Some will go as far as to put strip diffusion at the back of the room, in an order that incorporates a primitive root algorithm-- this will put the highs back in the room without making a muddy mess of the sound.
The problem with Auralex is that you get diffusion before you get absorption, and if you need more absorption you're stuck.
As I say, kill the room first, then you can tune it.
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The Blog:
http://voiceoveraudio.blogspot.com/
Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong. |
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Mike Sommer
A Hundred Dozen
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 1222
Location: Boss Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| JeffreyKafer wrote: | | I wouldn't mind building some 703 panels myself since i can custom fit them to the walls. Are there any simple instructions as to the best way to make them? |
I can put something together, but it's really very simple.
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The Blog:
http://voiceoveraudio.blogspot.com/
Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong. |
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Rob Ellis
M&M
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2385
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Do you have a cloud on the ceiling? |
I do. It's 2" thick ATS Acoustic Panel. "4 thick was just going to make it too cramped.
At this point it's either do makeshift 4 " panels across the corners/in the manner of a bass trap (I have the room to do it) floor to ceiling
or
"4 thick panels or OC703 on the wall space that comprises the corners, but not across them.
There really doesn;t seem to be many other options |
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BenWils
The Thirteenth Floor
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 1324
Location: In a Flyover State
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Turns out I have a bunch of 703 here at the house. I wasn't aware of what it was or looked like. A friend gave me a bunch of these panels...I wasn't sure if it was 703 or not. Turns out it is. Bonus. I need to add some to my booth now after wrapping it and see how it sounds.
Note: I had an engineer tell me my sound is in the very top percentile of most all the people he works with. That is a good sign. See, I wasn't lying about the better sound in the GK Booth. I have traps in mine...but it was nice to hear that it sounded great.
Now I shall see if the 703 makes it even better.
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Ben
"To be really good at voiceover, you need to improve your footwork and hip snap." |
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Frank F
Fat, Old, and Sassy
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 4421
Location: Park City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Mike writes: "... kill the room first, then you can tune it." |
Different approaches, similar goals.
Deaden the external noises then determine the acoustic requirements as a first step in developing a small recording environment, this has always been my approach. Then tune the SRRA as needed.
A "recording booth" is specifically engineered to keep outside noise - out. Inside the "booth" the analogy presented is correct - the SRRA "... should be tight and focused so that the performer is a single sound source".
Dead rooms were popular in the early 1960's and quickly fell out of favor for a room which is "alive"; Not LIVE. Too much acoustic absorption is equal to too little.
Not specifically Helhmoltz style; but resonators/diffusers can be effective at short distances -- depending upon how each is tuned. The key being - TUNED to the room.
Without the "air space" behind foam absorbers - the product becomes more of a muddier upper [color=red](my words)[/] and neither a diffuser or absorber at any frequency range.
We speak the same language, just with a different accent.
Frank F
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Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com |
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Rob Ellis
M&M
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2385
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Here are some pictures of the booth
Looking up from the floor
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Mike Sommer
A Hundred Dozen
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 1222
Location: Boss Angeles
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Rob,
Yeah, it's a tight space, alright.
If you can get those panels to go corner to corner that should do the trick. But that might mean disassembling them.
You can try putting those bass traps in the corners along the floor.
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The Blog:
http://voiceoveraudio.blogspot.com/
Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong. |
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Mike Sommer
A Hundred Dozen
Joined: 05 May 2008
Posts: 1222
Location: Boss Angeles
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Deaden the external noises then determine the acoustic requirements as a first step in developing a small recording environment, this has always been my approach. Then tune the SRRA as needed. |
So as not to confuse the readers: Keeping "noise" out of, or in a room is Isolation. "Adjusting" or "tuning" the room, is treatment of the rooms sound; how the room is perceived or reacts to sound.
Isolation is achieved through mass (gypsum thickness) , distance (air space) and decoupling the structure (separating the walls from the ground).
Treatment is first attained through proper design, unless you are working with a given space, then it's about conturing the room to bring it into focus.
To some extent, a rooms acoustical treatment can be mathematically predicted and worked out before construction is undergone. Of course design and build are often two different things, and there is always fine tuning and moving things about, to dial a room in.
It is important to understand that a room is nothing more than a box full of air. When that air is excited it resonates the walls of the box. The room is in its simplest form an instrument, like a violin or guitar. Such instruments need care in it's tuning, and depending upon it size will resonate at different frequencies.
When working with an existing room, we can not chose the frequency, much like trying to make a guitar out of a cigar box. Sure it will make a tone, but it's not always a pleasant one. So with our existing recording spaces, our only option is muffle the room with absorption.
The problem with a foam product like Auralex, is that it's often not thick enough to absorb the resonance and those nasty boomy bass freqencies, but it also diffuses a great deal- great for flutter echo and early refections. It also been my findings that it take about 6-inches of medium dencity foam to equal that of 4" of rigid insulation. And foam is far more expensive than fiberglass.
What makes rigid insulation so effective is that sound does not pass straight through, it actually moves through at an angle, due to resistance- this basically increases it's effectiveness. Setting a fiberglass panel against a wall, sounds passes through the panel reflects off the wall and returns, with a greater reduction (reduction = decay). If there is an air gap between the walls and the fiberglass panel, it's almost equal to doubling the thickness of the fiberglass. The only cost is space. It also increases the efficiency of the panels in the lower frequencies; making the panel more "broadband."
Same thing with foam, but because of the foams density, it needs to have an uneven surface. In this case wedge or pyramid shape is chosen. If the foam panel was flat it would reflect more than it would absorb. The uneven surface gives the foam more opportunity to absorb sound, and the diffusion characteristics of the wedges or pyramid surface provides a more even sound, and so does fiberglass in a very pleasing way. And foam, in all its splendor can't be tuned, you get what you get. But it looks cool.
| Quote: | | Dead rooms were popular in the early 1960's and quickly fell out of favor for a room which is "alive"; Not LIVE. Too much acoustic absorption is equal to too little. |
Actually announce booths of the 3 networks and of most studios in the 60's were fairly live. Moving to the music end of the biz, Bill Putnams "Mens Room" echo chamber was all the rage, and Goldstar Recording's echo chambers were the backbone if Phil Spector's "Wall of Sound."
Echo whether natural or man made was the norm, and in many cases was the norm until the late 70's. That's not to say that dead rooms did not exist, but for the most part production took place in large studios that had relatively medium decay times. Just listen to the commercials and TV programs of the period, the announcers voice bloomed in those wood pulp tile covered studios.
I can say much of the networks sound changed when Ernie Anderson threw a tantrum one evening, when he got tired of siting in the booth every night at ABC, and wanted to sit in the control room. The only mic the engineer could think of that would provided the isolation needed was the 416. The rest is history, and so were the budgets to maintain those big wonderful studios, that gave us those luscious sounds.
| Quote: | | Not specifically Helhmoltz style; but resonators/diffusers can be effective at short distances |
A Helhmoltz is a resonator: specifically a slot/slat resonator. It can either be tuned or a broadband. What's nice about a Helhmoltz Slot/Slat Resonator is that it can be tuned to an offending frequency, while providing "reflection," keeping the room lively in the upper frequencies.
Diffusion scatters the sound so that sound is spread evenly. It is an excellent way to treat echos -in large rooms. But as I said, rooms under 1500 cubic feet, suffer from low frequency modes, and or uneven frequency response. In other words some frequencies are emphasized and others are reduced. This results in colored sound. Absorption is the best way to deal with this problem, in small rooms.
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The Blog:
http://voiceoveraudio.blogspot.com/
Acoustics are counter-intuitive. If one thing is certain about acoustics, it is that if anything seems obvious it is probably wrong. |
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Rob Ellis
M&M
Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2385
Location: Detroit
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Okay, I switched out my Auralex bass traps in the corners for ATS 4-inch DIY panels...here are some pics
also added some wall panels to my editing area
[size=12]and here are the leftover bass traps![/size]
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