VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

Mike Harrison · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject:

I've had ISDN (and my trusty Telos Zephyr Classic) for almost seven years. Being able to offer it has definitely brought me biz I wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and I get ISDN bookings pretty regularly.

I bought Source-Connect not long after it came on the scene and, while it doesn't get used quite as regularly, it also has enabled me to get me some work that wouldn't have come my way without it.

It's nice not to have to say "no."
_________________
Mike
Male Voice Over Talent
I have taken leave of my sensors.

georgethetech · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject:

This may be taking things further down the technical rabbit hole, but...

The delay of SC is dependent on the ping time from you to the person you are connected with. Faster internet speed doesn't necessarily mean a faster ping. Thus, faster internet speeds will not lower your latency. This is a limitation of the internet and not a limitation of the software. All IP codecs deal with the same problem of latency.

Source Connect standard is designed to manage your connection automatically, so if you are receiving a higher bitrate the jitter buffer will be greater than if you are receiving a lower quality signal. If achieving low latency is your goal, when using SC Standard ask to receive a low quality signal while you send out a high quality signal, this can save as much as 300ms of latency. Source Connect Pro users have the ability to fine tune the buffer to their connection.

Source Connect uses the AAC LD, LD stands for Low delay. The encode and decode cycle is 40ms, faster than any MP3 or MPEG 2 codec, the only faster codec is APT-X (which SC supports in its pro version) or G.722 (lo fi).

A typical ISDN connection has at least 300ms of latency. Connections with less than 800ms of latency are tolerable for 2 way conversation. Remember that at the sound delay from one end of a football field to the other is over 40ms.

As for sales numbers, 2000 in less than 4 years of sales, not 6 years. EDNet at it max had 800 users, I think Source Elements is actually doing quite well and will be around for quite a long time. It's still a very niche market compared to software targeted for consumers.

Of course, I am biased as an authorized reseller of Source Elements products. Just wanted to set the facts straight. When someone comes along and makes a better product that can do what SC does at the same or better price, I'll sell that one, too!
_________________
If it sounds good, it is good.
George Whittam
GeorgeThe.Tech
424-226-8528
VOBS.TV Co-host
TheProAudioSuite.com Co-host
TriBooth.com Co-founder

Frank F · Posted: Thu May 21, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject:

Hate to spoil your day but according to AETF:

"There are two ways latency is measured: one direction and round trip. One direction latency is the time taken for the packet to travel one way from the source to the destination. Round-trip latency is the time taken for the packet to travel to and from the destination, back to the source. In fact, it is not the same packet that travels back, but an acknowledgment.

Latency is measured in milliseconds (ms) - thousandths of seconds. A latency of 150ms is barely noticeable so is acceptable. Higher than that, quality starts to suffer. When it gets higher than 300 ms, it becomes unacceptable for voice conversations.

Here are the effects of latency over voice quality:

* It slows down your phone conversations
* Untimeliness can results in overlapping noises, with one speaker interrupting the other
* Causes echo
* Disturbs synchronization between voice and other data types, especially during video conferencing.

"ISDN has a latency of about 10ms typically; depending upon circuit distance and routing". (from papers by DigiFon, Comrex, Telos).

So Soundgun a latency factor of 800 ms with Source Connect is far from "acceptable". For reference 800 ms is 8/10th's of a second/ or almost a second of delay.

Think of a badly dubbed foreign movie, you see the mouths move.......................... then later you hear the voice.

I apologize for the mistake in the number of years in business for Source Elements. I stand corrected.

G723.2-32 is very fast, capable of 32 bit encoding, mono or stereo capable, and is not low-fi. Many newer VOIP products will be adding this to their stack soon. Also do not forget Speex (wideband) and FLAC and several others codecs, many of which are not "patented" and are very good quality codecs with very low latency.

Skype's new audio codec offers a latency factor of 45 ms to 90 ms (or up to 290 ms depending upon how I clock latency) between my home and Japan for instance, how does SC compare?

I stand by my comment about the business model of Source Elements. Compare "apples to apples" not "apples to goldfish" when quoting the numbers of Source Elements users and EDNet.

I am not knocking SC as I see it is a good product with some limitations. However, facts are facts and no matter how you spin them - some things do not add up.

Toodles

Frank Frederick
"The Voice" tm
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

bobbinbeamo · Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 8:28 pm Post subject:

I've used my ISDN regularly, just recently added SC this year, but haven't had a session. But I'll be ready if requested. The investment was a no-brainer, as I have a client that wants to work this way. I believe the SC technology will do nothing but to improve.
_________________
Bobbin Beam
www.bobbinbeam.com
blog.bobbinbeam.com

jrkaiser · Guest

I guess it's all in the way you say it... "I have access to ISDN" versus "ISDN Available"... Personally, I'd love to be able to say "Skype Equipped" especially since the new Skype Silk codec arrived in version 4.0.

Since then the audio I hear from Skype 4.0 is warmer, richer, clearer, and lower latency.

This is what I love though...

https://developer.skype.com/silk?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=SILKDataSheet.pdf

By the way, Frank, what is this e-jamming software you mention in your sig?

verbcrunch · Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject:

I've contacted Source Connect support - but also posting here in case anyone (George? Smile

) might have a quick answer.

On a Mac, where does the Source Connect VST plug in get installed? I can't find an installer log anywhere..

I'm trying to use the standalone Source Elements Desktop, but it's not finding the VST version i installed. Works fine with ProTools, but i like the sound of the Mic Port Pro better than the M-Box, and i'm leaving on a trip to NH tomorrow.

Maybe you can't have VST / AU and ProTools versions of Source Connect on one Mac?

Regarding this thread - I now use Source Connect to bridge with my ISDN equipped studio on Cape Cod because i can't get ISDN installed where i live just north of Boston. It looks good to say I have ISDN and Source Connect, but in the past month I've done one Source Connect only session, and one ISDN session. The vast majority of my work goes out via FTP as an mp3, aiff, or wav file. One client in particular always used ISDN, but now have found new freedom in conducting VO sessions on a regular phone - from home, stuck in traffic, where ever. They now decline to use ISDN even when it's right there.

Overall, the primary purpose i see most people using Source Connect for is to bridge with their own studios. This requires purchasing the plug in twice.
_________________
Jeff Berlin
Humble Voice Guy
http://www.jeffberlin.com

georgethetech · Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 12:43 am Post subject:

You can have multiple versions on one Mac, yes. I recall Rebekah from SE walking me through finding the missing VST plugin once in Desktop, but I can't recall the trick. If you can't reach them by phone, they are on Skype as "Source-support".
Look in ~Library/Audio/Plug-ins/VST for your Source-connect.vst file.
If it isn't there, the install didn't work, try installing SC vst again.
_________________
If it sounds good, it is good.
George Whittam
GeorgeThe.Tech
424-226-8528
VOBS.TV Co-host
TheProAudioSuite.com Co-host
TriBooth.com Co-founder

verbcrunch · Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:17 am Post subject:

Thanks for your reply George !
After struggling with this at 3 in the morning, i've concluded that my Mac OS is too old. Still on "Tiger", on a G4 Powerbook. Source Connect website is vague - says the VST and AU versions are "Leopard compatible", but now i think they mean to say they require Leopard. If that's the case, the installer (which I've run 3x) shouldn't work. Also frustrated that the installer refers you to a non-existent installer log. I looked in the "VST" folder, saw every VST plug in i have except Source Connect. A search only yields the ProTools version.

Looks like i'll have to bring my M-Box along after all. I get much better results using the MicPort Pro, but i can't use that directly with ProTools. If i try to use the M-Box, the MicPort, and the required iLok, i'll have to bring a USB hub too. <Sigh> I miss being able to travel without a full blown recording setup .
_________________
Jeff Berlin
Humble Voice Guy
http://www.jeffberlin.com

georgethetech · Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 9:31 am Post subject:

Jeff:
I contacted Rebekah at SE, hopefully she'll be in touch very soon.
I use SE Desktop with SC VST on a PB12" G4 and it works perfectly with the MicPort. No reason at all you shouldn't be able to.
I am sorry I can't recall the fix to get the VST plug-in installed, but I know this same thing has happened to me.
Here's a link to the VST file you can download:
http://idisk.mac.com/eldorec-Public/Source-Connect.vst.zip
_________________
If it sounds good, it is good.
George Whittam
GeorgeThe.Tech
424-226-8528
VOBS.TV Co-host
TheProAudioSuite.com Co-host
TriBooth.com Co-founder

verbcrunch · Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 10:17 am Post subject:

OMG - this is working !! The file you posted, placed in the VST folder - Source Connect immediately showed up when I launched Desktop. I did a test session, worked beautifully.

Holy Sh*T - i owe you big time !

I did hear back from Source Elements support - was told to uninstall and reinstall.

OK, debt of gratitude, you made my "day off" a little less cumbersome.. the "Golden Handcuffs" a little more comfortable..
_________________
Jeff Berlin
Humble Voice Guy
http://www.jeffberlin.com

BenWils · Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject:

Sorry, I did not see this sooner, Jeff. Your same situation happened to me recently as well. Had the PT version and tried to install Desktop on the laptop. I needed to reinstall to make it work.
_________________
Ben

"To be really good at voiceover, you need to improve your footwork and hip snap."

verbcrunch · Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:51 pm Post subject:

FWIW.. i'm at the North Conway Grand in NH. Logged into the typical hotel wireless internet with a user name and password - good for 48 hours. Wireless. Not a full signal. Didn't expect to connect - after all i have no way to control port 6000 here..

Source Connect.... connected !

Sent a test recording to the home rig.. flawless.

This changes everything.

Thanks again for the help today.
_________________
Jeff Berlin
Humble Voice Guy
http://www.jeffberlin.com

georgethetech · Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:03 am Post subject:

My pleasure, Jeff. As a dealer for Source Elements products, I like to give support to any user having issues, whether they bought the software from me or not! I want to see SC grow in stability and popularity, and each satisfied user moves us toward that goal!
_________________
If it sounds good, it is good.
George Whittam
GeorgeThe.Tech
424-226-8528
VOBS.TV Co-host
TheProAudioSuite.com Co-host
TriBooth.com Co-founder

Gregory Best · Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: Soure Connect vs. Audio TX??

How does Audio TX compare to SC? Beau Weaver spoke highly about Audio TX and disagreed with Joe Cipriano at VOICE2008. Beau seems to be much more of a techie than Joe. Beau said Audio TX was superior to SC.

Opinions?? I am looking for options since I have been told by AT&T that ISDN is not availalbe in my rural neighborhood.
_________________
Gregory Best

greg@gregorybest.com

Frank F · Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 3:54 pm Post subject:

Side by side comparison (without the graph):

AudioTX uses less bandwidth per connection and offers the same/similar quality audio with similar specific codecs.

SC does have AAC-HE/LD (MPEG 4) audio codecs included, AudioTX does not.

AudioTX is a bit more costly due to the fact it combines an ISDN connection capability with the IP software.

Pricing (from respective websites):

SC Standard with dongle from $475,
or SC Pro $1495.00 without dongle,
or SC Pro $1995 with APT-X codec - no dongle.
(Note: APT-X is an audio codec mostly used in the UK, not so much in the USA or the rest of the world)

AudioTX is priced at approx. $800 USD without NT-1 or ISDN connection. Note: NT-1 is not necessary for an IP ONLY connection.

Installation:

With SC a person needs to have some advanced computer hardware knowledge or pay for help in setting the program up to get SC running properly.

AudioTX is simple to set-up, basic computer program installation knowledge and the ability to gather your static IP address, is the only requirement.

Firewalls may present problems for installation with both programs.

Recording:

SC CAN record directly to the time-line of VST capable audio programs or ProTools.

AudioTX does not record directly to an editing program time-line.

Connectivity:

Both programs have the same limitation in that each software program only "talks" with another connection with the same flavor/brand/name IP codec.

Each codec program may also connect to ISDN or another IP program through a costly bridging service. AudioTX has ISDN codec software included if ISDN lines are available at your location and you have an NT1 then there is no need for a bridging service.

As far as I am aware there are NO IP-to-IP codec bridging services available at present. But, I could be wrong.

Hope that helps answer your question Greg.

Toodles

F2
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com