VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

[Don G.]

This thread reminds me of the reason I included the following on the Rates page of my website:

...Remember that you're paying for the value of the work being done, not the time spent doing it....

[richgates]

This is one of the better threads I've seen since I've started reading and posting on the VO-BB. I don't really have anything worthwhile to contribute at this time, but thanks for showing that you can have a spirited discussion with opposing points of view without being disrespectful. Kudos to you all and thank you for all the great information.

[JimRon]

this great. love these kinds of talks.

the problem is everyone wants everything done on the cheap, and they expect the return to be huge. the station i work for cut everyone's budget. not in half, not by a third, but pretty much entirely. i can't even buy CDs to make copies of commercials for clients. i just recently asked if i could put in for a check for $35 dollars to enter a spot i produced in an awards competition. i got told "there's nothing in the budget for it."

the same goes for VOs. most people requesting VOs want it done on the cheap. is it because they low-balled their own rate to the client, and are now stuck with a low rate? is it because they want to keep the majority of the fee for themselves? who knows.

one thing i know for sure, we as quality, professional VO talent need to stick to our guns. true $50 for a :30 is $50 you didn't have before. but is your time to voice this spot only worth $50? maybe the industry will bottom out eventually and we'll get back to decent rates.

another thing to remember, if the client is only willing to pay $50 for a :30, then they just got a commercial worth $50. will it generate the results they want? probably not. and who will they blame for it? those who produced it. will the client ever want another commercial produced? if they do, i'll bet they'll go with higher priced talent who can deliver a spot that will produce results.

then there's the flip side. that one VO person who's just starting out... who doesn't have a rate card... who needs this spot. they don't mean to lower the rate bar. they just want the work so they can achieve the higher paying VO gigs.
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Jim Feldman
www.jimfeldman.us
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jimfeldman
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[jrodriguez315]

[Jeffrey Kafer]

[JimRon]

[Rob Ellis]

After hanging up my DJ headphones I sold radio advertising and then real estate for about 10 years, and faced stiff competition in both industries from price-cutters. I used to get really mad and complain about how unfair it was, but then I had an epiphany, something along the lines of what Jeffrey said in his post:

[bobbinbeamo]

If you work for $50, after you pay the appropriate income tax in the state of California, you'd net $31. Then there's cost of the time spent billing & collecting, the cost of doing business; rent or mortgage payment prorata to size of the studio, the electricity, phones, internet connection, the equipment, the amount of $ amortized spent on training, marketing. Things I'd certainly consider whether or not to accept a job.
Those who err in this judgement may be going out of business and not even realize it.
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Bobbin Beam
www.bobbinbeam.com
blog.bobbinbeam.com

[Philip Banks]

If people sell 'em cheap they need to pile 'em high too. What's interesting about the people who are going out of business is that most were convenient Voice Overs (good enough). A producer would use the person because they lived nearby. Some believe technology has allowed people in who really are not able to make it Voice Over work, the truth is that the opposite has happened. Technology for the most part has raised the bar, not lowered it.

I know a team of TV producers who between them make around 400 TV commercials per year. Do any of them use "local talent" any more. The boss told me that he doesn't have to put up with them any longer because quality international talent is a phone call away.

[Donovan]

Wow, this has really been a great thread to read. I haven't been posting much lately (as I've been revamping almost EVERYTHING with respect to my business), but this thread has motivated me.

My 3 cents follows (why give the low-ball rate):

When I first started out trying to do VO seriously (just over 2 yrs ago) I was still in college and learning my way around the business. I was using a $99 mic in my dorm bathroom with blankets on the wall and over the shower curtain. I did free spots for one of the campus radio stations just to get the practice. As I learned more and wanted to up the ante, I found some folks willing to help me out. They would have "throw-away" jobs that were for $20, $30, etc. that they would give me so I could get some more practice and make a little pocket money. The more I worked, the better I got. This was based on feedback and experience on mic that I got from doing the free and $20 jobs. Two years (and a crap-load of investments) later, I am just getting into a nice stride and getting regional gigs and auditioning for national ones. Do I still do $50 jobs? 98% of the time, no...unless I see an opportunity for more exposure and experience in a different genre of this wonderful craft.

My point is this: without having access to the free and $20 jobs, I wouldn't have grown and improved as quickly as I have. Were those spots bad? Mostly, yes...but we all know that buying a $300 car isn't buying the best. What it will do is get you from point A to B for the time (and budget) being. I'd never tell ANYONE just starting out to not take a low dollar job. I truly think that is ridiculous and unfair. What I will say, is that no experienced pro with a decent resume should sell themselves short.

To me, that's like telling an 8 year old to charge $5 a cup at their lemonade stand. The point is to get what you can while you're "young" in the business and learning. Once you've started a gourmet lemonade company, go ahead and charge $5 a bottle.

Sorry for the strange analogy, but that's how I see things. There will ALWAYS be a dollar store within a couple miles of a fancy department store. When you want cheap, you go to one. When you want the best, you go to the other. It is unrealistic, IMHO, to think producers don't think the same way.

Whew! Thanks for reading! Thanks for this discussion!
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Donovan

www.DonovanVO.com

[Rob Ellis]

Great illustration, Donovan.

[Jeffrey Kafer]

[Brian in Charlotte]

Donovan, I agree there are dollar stores around, but as "professional" voice actors, for the good of all, we need to put them out of business (not really of course!) by not accepting unreasonable offers.

CONSIDER THIS?
On-camera actors who are well known get paid millions of dollars. How do they come up with their rate? Is it based on how much time they spend doing the job? Is it how little/much overhead costs they have? Is it based on whether or not they can "fit it in during down times"? Do they consider whether or not they have to go on location or stay "at home in their pj's"? No, rather they consider many of the factors that we, as "voice" actors, should consider. The same could be said of sports figures, Doctors, Lawyers etc....the rate for voice acting professionals should be based on the final use of the product, where it will run, how long it will run etc.

Consider a commercial during the Super Bowl or American Idol: Does a company pay the same to air a :30 spot during this event as they would a normal spot running during a tractor pull event? NOPE...why? The potential audience drives the price. The same is true of our work. If it's a local there is a reasonable rate, but that rate would go much higher for "the same spot" if it goes national. So, the client is in the same position we are, thus what do they do...sometimes they try to squeeze the voice talent to save money. What should we do? Squeeze back if we are professional actors...not for the sake of squeezing back, but because our work has a very real value that needs to be maintained...that's why the union has set rates. The client is already getting a deal if they don't have to pay the 10-15% for an agent...heck, how many times have we all purchased something that was on sale for 10-15% off! So, you could take the union rates and let clients know they are saving 10-15%!!

If someone is just starting out and they need to get experience...I can understand them taking the low rate and if producers are happy, good for them. But, my point is presented to professional actors. We were all in the same position of needing to get work etc...but it's somewhat apples to oranges (for me) when I think of new folks and professional actors.

I agree with others comments about this being a great thread!

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Brian Haymond
www.TheVoiceofBrian.com
YouTube.com/VoiceofBrian
Twitter.com/TheVoiceofBrian

[JBarrett]

Just another quick THANK YOU from the sidelines for the awesome discussion! I'm still in the education stage, so this is great information to store away for the future. Woohoo!
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Justin S. Barrett
http://www.justinsbarrett.com/

[mcm]

What a good discussion.

There are parts of the country where nobody has the budget to pay top or even medium dollar for VO. We can stay away from those places and assume that somebody else will take care of those moms & pops. Sometimes I stumble across them though and am fascinated. I recently saw a website for a production company in a very rural area and I knew I would love working with those people and dropped them a line. They called me and we had a great conversation - before the end of it they were offering their hunting cabin to my family for a vacation trip. Yow. Talk about "being a human being". They also offered me $15-$20 above their usual VO rate and have sent me 3 fun jobs in the last few weeks. There is no way I would turn these people down.

On the other side of the coin - here is a post by our own Dan-O that I have linked to before. It's a great help when explaining the value of what you're offering to somebody who wants it for less.