VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

whalewtchr · Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:59 pm Post subject:

Did someone say Margaritas? My soundproofing involves 2am recording sessions and of course Margaritas.
_________________
jonahcummings

Frank F · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:03 am Post subject:

I thought the idea of "soundproof windows" was interesting. I still had to ask the benefits of the design suggested; one, relates to cost, and the other with the angled/offset window or drywall.

Cost in a room with seven windows could be prohibitive as has been mentioned. Also, a room with angled/offset windows or drywall, as has been discussed, only changes the reflections of sound. Although it is still best to have no 90 degree angles, if possible, within the studio environment.

Now here is the kicker, a layer of quarter inch, clear, plexiglass or plastic would do the have the same noise blocking features as the "soundproof" window; with less cost. A four foot by eight foot piece of plastic runs approximately $60.00 USD and is easily cut to fit.

Now, to make this clear/transparent window become an absorber (of sorts), cut very thin slots or drill very small holes in the plexiglass/plastic sheet. With a two inch or better airspace between the glass window and the plexiglass/plastic window which is placed on the inside or studio side of the window casing. with at least a two inch airspace; a Helholtz type absorber is created. This preserves the visual transparency of the window but eliminates much of the audio bleed.

Depending upon how thin the slots or the size of the holes and how many slots or holes are created, the absorber will attenuate mid and highs easily, low frequencies will diminish effectively also. This does require a bit of knowledge and skill to tune the Helmholtz style absorber properly but is easy to achieve.

Sound from outside the window will decrease substantially, depending upon the source and other room factors. Reflections inside the room are minimized and/or absorbed within the airspace.

More details are available but I thought it better to keep it simple within this post.

Just food for thought. Who is buying the next round?

Frank F
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

BrienHolcombe · Joined: 04 Apr 2012 Posts: 4

"Cost in a room with seven windows could be prohibitive as has been mentioned. "

This is not what the video was saying. The window plugs simply attempt to "match" the mass of the wall that the window is supported by, which plexiglass will not do...that's it. This is not cost prohibitive, but is time consuming to do properly.

The attempt to make a resonator out of a window defeats the isolation.

What the author of the video goes on to say..., no disrespect to Mr. Noxon, in respect to angled sheetrock is filled with many holes. What it does, as I already suggested, is accurate but what it does not do is to take into account the existing room conditions.

When isolation is part of the equation, then we all adhere to the "mass/spring/mass" principle of double wall construction.

So if you attempt to install this angled sheetrock in a room that already has an interior hard boundary then you defeat the existing mass spring mass, even if it is a coupled wall assembly like would be found in a bedroom, and you add the third leaf.

The 3 leaf in this respect is coupled and not a true leaf, but it does have the potential to reduce the transmission loss at the low frequency area that we as musicians and/or recording studio owners must always be concerned with.

Does the canted/angled hard boundary reduce flutter...yes. Is it a cure for every ill in a room...no, everything matters.
_________________
Brien Holcombe
____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Frank F · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 3:43 pm Post subject:

Brian, both ideas are time consuming, as you suggest. Using mass to effect a co-efficient change is great on paper, but in reality can and will be costly, difficult to put into play, and time consuming.

I suggest those who do not understand the "plexiglass/plastic" concept take a good look at www.silentsource.com

You might be surprised what a little plastic, even in film form, can do and how simple and easy it really can be. Weight or mass is not always the answer.

Frank F
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

BrienHolcombe · Joined: 04 Apr 2012 Posts: 4

In respect to isolation...the only answer is mass. Anything else is reducing the assembly down to the lowest common denominator, essentially the weakest link, and at this point it will be the windows.

You cannot stop sound, our goal is to interpret what it is effecting and how to overcome it. The Helmholtz has a place, but the place is for treatment of the interior isolated room, not as a window treatment.

Since low frequency is always the issue, a flimsy single pane window coupled with plexiglass will not control low frequency.

Remember, mid and high frequencies are easy to treat...easy, but an open hole like a door or a window is a weak link, and this has to be addressed by mass.

You can do this one of two ways. Build a mass laden window plug or upgrade the existing glass to be more massive.
_________________
Brien Holcombe
____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Frank F · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject:

The issue being discussed is sound reduction from outside noise through a window. Using another mass (not a physical mass), air - can and does work well.

Most low frequencies are from road rumble and are transmitted through walls, floor, and ceilings. Adjusting JUST the long wave noise through a window is only one issue to be addressed.

Quoting www.silentsource.com regarding the DeAmp Clearsorber: "...a new patented micro-slotted, clear panel that provides significant mid and low frequency absorption."

This company also has a thin "film" version of the Clearsorber which is acceptable.

Similar acoustical features can be created by an amateur, although probably not as professional looking or maybe sound absorbing as the commercial version; the inexpensive plexiglass/acrylic/plastic - works.

Air is a mass which should NEVER be overlooked.

I have used the Clearsorber and a homemade version in several studio environments with great success. As I have said, physical mass is not always the answer. One must first define the question.

Frank F
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

BrienHolcombe · Joined: 04 Apr 2012 Posts: 4

"I have used the Clearsorber and a homemade version in several studio environments with great success. As I have said, physical mass is not always the answer. One must first define the question. "

Good...in a known environment, this is part of the process.

But mass is the answer...always.

Now I do not know who you are and I suspect that you do not know who I am.

But I know this. The people that I am involved with do not enlist any specific " product" as a means to terminate an acoustical issue.

The start of this thread was about windows...this is a leak area as doors are. Now this product may have worked for you, and that is fine as this happens all the time when all things are considered.

But in respect to windows and plugs...it will fail. It will fail due to the want of mass which is the integrity of the continuity of a hard boundary which is designed to isolate sound.
_________________
Brien Holcombe
____________________________________________
Sound: You can't stop it, you can only try to contain it.

Frank F · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject:

To each their own.

And you are correct, I do not know you or who you work for. And further, I am not recommending any specific product, merely suggesting another view,

"One never achieves success without failure."

FF
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com

Ed Gambill · Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:00 pm Post subject:

I just thought that a cheap, easy to make device (window plugs) might help. The video I posted the link to was regarding the plugs only, the wall thing was not part of my thoughts.

I don’t know what floor this room is on, whether it’s platform or balloon framing. With wood, brick or stucco siding. I don’t know if it's on a grown floor on crawl space or on monolithic slab or footing /slab.

But next time I am pouring a floor I would like to decouple using Mercury pools. But then it would have so many problems. I subscribe to decouple first, mass second, then treatment.

BTW one of the best books I have on acoustic is “Sam’s Audio Encyclopedia” . I have tried to fine new ones to no joy.
_________________
Esse quam videri "To be rather than to seem"
www.SaVoa.org

No. 07000 Member AES

ballenberg · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:30 am Post subject:

Now you see what happened here is that I opened a can of worms--I went further into the link than Ed intended, thereby stirring up a tempest in a sheetrock pot. Now I've got a little sparring match going--Not that I don't enjoy it--Hmm, could we get Mindy and Tom in here from the old Cyberstation--Now those were some sparks--In fact, I think that thread actually burst into flames.

How about a Building with Mass vs Going Fi-Core thread? Doesn't make a bit of sense, but what the heck-- A little heated discussion is actually okay--Too bad when things do get warm around here, they get shut down in a heartbeat. Must everything be kiss-kiss all the time?

Ed Gambill · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:46 am Post subject:

We should take the can o worms, get some cane poles and such, find a nice place and try to catch some fish.

Frank is my friend, truth be told we started out in a bit of a disagreement and found a way to work it all out

I have been guilty of "my way or the highway" before, 99.9% of the time it's not a good course to take.

Oh yes, we can take a bottle of VO-BB Golden Reserve for sipping, the fish won't mind.
_________________
Esse quam videri "To be rather than to seem"
www.SaVoa.org

No. 07000 Member AES

Bruce · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:58 am Post subject:

ballenberg · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:02 am Post subject:

No argument there, Bruce --It does seem funny that so often when things do get heated, it's in GEAR--A place where, more than any other section, there are facts that can be proved over opinions.

Oh, and Ed--I wasn't talking about you being part of the sparring match.

Frank F · Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:08 am Post subject:

Being able to agree to disagree is good.

Discussions are good, personal viewpoints or attitudes should not bias one's ability to learn. I received some good information from this thread, did you?

I had not intended to offer anything but some food for thought. As someone said, the first sentence after each post should have been: "So, give me some more information".

We each have ideas to share, discussion helps hone concepts and ideas into practical use.

No kiss, kiss here boys and girls.

Frank F
_________________
Be thankful for the bad things in life. They opened your eyes to the good things you weren't paying attention to before. email: thevoice@usa.com