VO-BB - 20 YEARS OLD!

SomeAudioGuy · Contributor III Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 75 Location: LA

Sorry for the blog spam, but I'm breaking in a new preamp/compressor combo (RNP/RNC), and thought it would be fun to do a little shootout with my old workhorse the ART Tube PAC.

I was pretty surprised by the results...

Living Room Laboratory: Preamps FIGHT! ART Pro Audio vs FMR Audio!
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Lance Blair · M&M Joined: 03 Jun 2007 Posts: 2281 Location: Atlanta

Congrats on your new gear.! I'm not surprised about the results. Preamps are crucial. I'd rather have an RNP & a 4050 than a high end mic into a $100 pre.

You can't run dynamics on cheap pres. Well, technically you can...the 421 suits you well.

As for the 416, so many people love em' on cheaper tube gear or dark or veiled-sounding stuff I'm not crazy about. I sold my 416 after I took it in for a test drive on a bunch of high end pres and really heard what that mic is all about.
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SomeAudioGuy · Contributor III Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 75 Location: LA

Thanks Lance!

I think the thing holding me back from making purchases, it was just so easy to hop into a studio I work at and use an Avalon or LA610 in a proper booth. My meager home kit just never compared LOL.

I think I could dial in a better sound with the 416 than what I initial got here, but truthfully I think I'm just hamstrung by space. Loud condensers just need more physical space than my poor TINY little closet.
I think at the end of the day though, my 416 will need tubes on it somewhere. It doesn't sound "bad" with the RNP, but it doesn't appeal to me, a little harsh.

In the meantime, I guess I'll just have to sound awesome on my MD421u5, sigh...

Wink

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bobsouer · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject:

Juan,

Very interesting post. Thank you.
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SomeAudioGuy · Contributor III Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 75 Location: LA

As always, thanks for checking it out Bob!
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Frank F · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject:

Adding a good tube into the ART can help. The biggest problem with the cheap/inexpensive pre's is you cannot control the smoothness of the tube in the gain section properly.

There are however, some tweaks which can help. I will not elaborate here on the VO-BB (not enough space available, nor does anyone really care or need to know).

Regarding the 416 on a low end or high end pre-amp, the gain is set almost 40db higher with the amplification (this is what makes a shotgun a shotgun) on the 416 than most standard condenser microphones. As Lance indicated, when using a very fine pre-amp with the 416 you might find things in the mic and your voice you do/did not enjoy. The 416 is a touchy mic and meant to be used with Nagra's and video cameras and the like, not with high end audio gear. it's expensive; mostly because it works for what it was intended to do and as we all know video folks like to spend money on gear.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the MD421 is a very good microphone for the radio style project (as is the RE-20). But it needs to be driven harder to get the subtleties you might find with a higher end condenser microphone designed with a wider dynamic range and for the spoken human voice with all it's nuances.

Good luck and Toodles

F2
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SomeAudioGuy · Contributor III Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 75 Location: LA

Oh I'm WELL aware of what the 416 was designed for. In fact the last thing I used mine on was a friend's low budget film set. They thought cheapo wireless lavs were neat...

Again I don't think my problem with the FMR/416 combo is the equipment, it's the space. Being such a small closet, I don't really have the room to properly set up. When I record myself on the 416 in a proper booth, I'm usually about 12-16 inches away, tip of the mic in line with my nose, angle of mic aiming at my chest.

I can't do that in the closet, LOL.

Since my Tube PAC is pretty much going to be retired by the FMR combo, I might take a look at what new tubes might do. It would be a fun experiment...
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Frank F · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:17 pm Post subject:

How high can you take the 416 and still not touch the ceiling... point it down. the 416 will be at an extreme angle, but they were meant to be used in a large area and pointing down to accommodate more than one or two people speaking.

Think "outside" of your box. How do you acquire audio in the field? You use a boom with the 416 mic outside of the camera shot and at an extreme angle, pointed DOWN.

Do the above in your booth/closet and see what kind of sound you hear. But, then again, I have been told "You ( I ) know nothing about what you ( I ) speak", especially as my knowledge relates to the 416, so take my suggestions for what they are worth to you and your situation.

Toodles

F2

* ( ) added by me to put the sentence into context.
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SomeAudioGuy · Contributor III Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 75 Location: LA

LOL!
Frank I gotcha. I've been using the 416 off and on for almost a decade, and you're description of using the 416 is almost exactly how I described using it.

I drew some pictures:
416 in the Studio I work at...
416 in my closet...

Thing is, the closet proximity really seems to suit the MD421.
I'm not trying to fix the closet recording situation, as the only "outside the box" solution is to get outside the closet LOL, and I live right next door to an elementary school.
If I want the sound of my 416, then I'll just record at one of the studios i work at. For the first time since moving out to LA however, I now have a viable home recording solution using the FMR/421 combo.
Woot!
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Frank F · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject:

ROFL I knew you had the idea, just trying to make sure others were able to follow our thoughts.

Here is a pic (pardon the art work) based upon your pic of what it might look like using the MKH416 in your closet/studio at home, based upon the best placement:

And, yes, I agree. The size of the closet dictates a mic where proximity effect (close mouth to microphone) can work for you... the MD421 is ideal for this type of recording style.

Toodles

F2
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SomeAudioGuy · Contributor III Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 75 Location: LA

LOL!
Nicely done Frank!
Unfortunately the line I drew above my head (and a stunning likeness it is too) is the top of the closet space. There are a bunch of shelves in there.
I could try sitting on the floor, but I'd rather have a music stand for my copy.
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Frank F · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:05 pm Post subject:

Or, remove the shelves... just a thought.

I thought you drew my shiny head with that pic. Wink

FF
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SomeAudioGuy · Contributor III Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 75 Location: LA

LOL!
They're nailed in there pretty tight, but if I thought it was worth fixing I'd do it.
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Bill Campbell · DC Joined: 09 Mar 2007 Posts: 621

I liked the 416/FMR combo better than the other samples, including the 421.

With your voice and the style of read you do, which is good and natural, I don't think the 416 or 421 is your best choice. The 421 is just dull and the 416 is more for your hard sell trailer type deliveries. There are exceptions, like Bob Souer's big voice sounds very good on the 416.

One of my favorites for your style is the Rode NT1A, the quietest mic on the planet. Nice bottom end and great presence. Many people love the NT1A and some say it is harsh. I say it is "honest" and only harsh if you have a harsh delivery. I think the Rode would match up very well with your voice and FMR stuff. Only $230 for a quality, non-Chinese mic.
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SomeAudioGuy · Contributor III Joined: 08 Apr 2008 Posts: 75 Location: LA

Hey Bill!
I've used NT2's NT1a's, NT1000's, and K2's. Out of all of them I like the sound of the NT2 (not NT2a) on my voice. I like the NT1a, but my actual workhorse mic is the M-Audio Solaris. While it might not be as "quiet" it does have a really clean sound, roll off, pad, and 3 polar patterns. I'll be using that for most of my recording (of myself and others) until I can replace my 414.

For fun, I thought I'd use two Sennheiser mics (shotgun and dynamic), or I totally would've plugged in some of my other mics. I might do it again just to light up my vintage D202 and SM56.

I guess I should clarify that I'm a voice director, and RARELY step in front of the mic. Hearing my voice on these things is really just academic. The reason I'm so stoked about the MD421u5, is I got it from a guy just paying for shipping, and thought it was all but dead. Listening to the ART sample, that's all I thought I could get out of it, and never even bothered taking it to a studio. The FMR brought out a legit sound from a mic I thought was all worn out.

I've gotten the flat comment a couple times now from the 421. I wonder if some of it might be my headphones and monitors, but I really do think that's closest to what I actually sound like. The 416, in my tiny closet, with a really tight proximity, doesn't sound particularly honest to me...
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