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VO-BB - 19 YEARS OLD! Where A.I. is a four-letter word.
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Bruce Boardmeister
Joined: 06 Jun 2005 Posts: 7931 Location: Portland, OR
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todd ellis A Zillion
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 10494 Location: little egypt
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Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Lost me at:
Quote: | “At the end of the day, nobody knows if you’re on a Neumann U 87 or on a Blue Yeti,” says Doetzer. |
_________________ "i know philip banks": todd ellis
who's/on/1st?
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Bob Bergen CM
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 950
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Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Great article. |
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Philip Banks Je Ne Sais Quoi
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 11049 Location: Portgordon, Scotland
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Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Two ladies meet in the middle of Ilchester, Somerset, England.
"Barbara, I meant to ask the last time I saw you, do you see much of Philip? How is he?"
"Well, one can never be too sure, dear one. I hear him on the wireless and on the television, he sounds very well but mostly he has been recorded so..."
"Perhaps you should call him on the telephone."
"No, I'm knitting a new cardigan." |
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Lee Gordon A Zillion
Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 6846 Location: West Hartford, CT
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Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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So many of these types of articles are overly positive, giving people the false impression that anyone can succeed at VO. This guy was a bit more realistic by pointing out some of the pitfalls, although he never really conveyed that the hardest part of doing VO work is getting the work in the first place. But even in this piece he seemed to speak with and about mostly people who had achieved some level of success, the most notable exception, apparently, being himself. However, the paragraph I found most telling was this one:
It’s extremely difficult to make a good living in voice acting here these days. I was stunned when Grusnick told me that he doesn’t book enough work — around $30,000 year — to do it full-time. “Once you take out taxes and business expenses and agency fees, it’s about half of that.” He also works part-time scheduling for a construction company and teaches VO to doofuses like me.
For those who didn't read the whole article, Grusnick is the guy who taught the Beginner VO course the author took. Let that sink in. He paid to take a VO course from a guy who can't make a living doing VO. _________________ Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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Philip Banks Je Ne Sais Quoi
Joined: 20 Jun 2005 Posts: 11049 Location: Portgordon, Scotland
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 4:45 am Post subject: |
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The number of voiceover coaches has increased by a ridiculous level and few, if any, are genuinely able to say "It's just my way of giving back!"
Do I blame them for exploiting a market? Not at all, they have bills to pay and like the rest of us they just do what they gotta do.
Last edited by Philip Banks on Sun Aug 27, 2023 4:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Bergen CM
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 950
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Lee Gordon wrote: | For those who didn't read the whole article, Grusnick is the guy who taught the Beginner VO course the author took. Let that sink in. He paid to take a VO course from a guy who can't make a living doing VO. |
So, here's the deal. Historically, the most respected acting teachers, from Meisner to Hagen, Adler and even Strasberg did not make a living at acting. Most who had a bit of success in their acting career did so in theater, which even to this day does not pay terribly well.
I was actually impressed that the vo coach in this article had the character to share the challenges in today's vo landscape. It represents far more than the Chicago market. And in today's e-world, where every coach and guru preaches make money in vo, this piece is a refreshing smack in the face of honesty.
Back when I studied vo 40 plus years ago, those whom I studied with, those who were the most respected and recommended by top agents and casting directors, weren't necessarily the most successful. Sure, a few like Daws Butler and Michael Bell were A-listers. But I would say a good 80% did not work consistently. They were just great teachers. And what they taught was craft, not how to make a living or even make a dime. It was considered a red flag for an acting teacher to discuss making money at acting.
And no one challenged or even questioned these vo coaches regarding the success of their own vo career. Just like today no one in New York challenges a great vocal coach, dance instructor, etc., as they train for Broadway. A great teacher in the arts does not have to be a working artist. They just have to have the gift of being a great teacher. |
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todd ellis A Zillion
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 10494 Location: little egypt
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Preface: I am an outlier.
That's what I find funny about the "acting" world ... academia is the same. You don't have to be successful at something to teach it.
On the same note - there are lots of examples of great players being horrible coaches, Larry Bird, for instance.
I just find it difficult to imagine taking the advice of someone who, for whatever reason, isn't DOING what they are trying to teach me to do. But that's just me. I approach VO as a business first and only. Everything else is just a means to an end. I care not a whit for glamour and fame as long as there is a balance in the checking account for groceries and a little boat gas at the end of the month. I bang out my long, intricate, medical narrations and wait by the mailbox. I live by session fees, not royalties, and that's ok with me.
Again, not everybody does it my way ... but I did put three kids through private school and two through college without having a major agent ... so, there's that. _________________ "i know philip banks": todd ellis
who's/on/1st?
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Lee Gordon A Zillion
Joined: 25 Jul 2008 Posts: 6846 Location: West Hartford, CT
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Bob Bergen wrote: | Historically, the most respected acting teachers, from Meisner to Hagen, Adler and even Strasberg did not make a living at acting. Most who had a bit of success in their acting career did so in theater, which even to this day does not pay terribly well. |
This is true, but that was then and this is now. I would guess that these days, much to your dismay, when most people sign up for a VO course, their intention is to learn a skill they can monetize. As you point out, these great teachers weren't able to make a lot of money as actors, not because they lacked the ability, but because stage acting didn't pay very much. The guy mentioned in the article appears to be actively trying to earn a living doing VO but, for whatever reason, can't quite cut it.
It's entirely possible that this guy is a great teacher who can extract performances from his students that he his not capable of doing, himself. But it is equally possible that he's a hack. _________________ Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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Bob Bergen CM
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 950
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 11:50 am Post subject: |
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You are correct, Lee! That is the way of today for the majority who pursue vo. Not the way for animation, but definitely the way for everything else. I will not work with a student who brings up making money or asks about my student's success rate. They are in this for the wrong reasons and in for a huge pile of disappointment. There are still many out there in this for craft as I have a good 3-4 year waitlist for coaching, and I am very clear about what I offer and do not offer.
Things have not changed in the world of pure acting training. The best of the best still will not discuss making money at acting. But these are people who come from an actor's mindset, both the students as well as the teachers. Very different from today's vo generation. I totally get where this generation is coming from. |
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todd ellis A Zillion
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 10494 Location: little egypt
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Once again, lee says it nicer than me. _________________ "i know philip banks": todd ellis
who's/on/1st?
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todd ellis A Zillion
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 10494 Location: little egypt
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | I will not work with a student who brings up making money ... |
Man, Bob, I hate to be contrary, but ... Why is that the wrong reason?
I respect you as a talent and a wonderful, generous person, and, obviously, you are not preying on the hopeful masses as a LOT of these VO charlatans are.
But I don't get it.
I love VO, but if I wasn't making money at it, I'd find something else to do. _________________ "i know philip banks": todd ellis
who's/on/1st?
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Bob Bergen CM
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 950
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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todd ellis wrote: | Quote: | I will not work with a student who brings up making money ... |
Man, Bob, I hate to be contrary, but ... Why is that the wrong reason? |
Because they are in it for the money, not the love of acting. I cannot guarantee or predict my own income or bookings. No way I can guarantee a student's. One doesn't need an animation vo coach to know you can make zero or you can make millions.....and everything in-between. So when I'm asked how much money one can make in cartoons I know I am not the right teacher for them. I myself am not in this for the money. Never have been. And there are dozens of coaches out there happy to dangle the make money at vo carrot. I'm interested in working with actors, and people looking to be better actors. Not necessarily working actors. The majority who study the arts do not work. It's always been that way. And, I've found those in it for the money rarely have the fire needed to be a working actor.
Now, that said I could tell from their first time at the mic those who had the "it" factor and would be competing one day along with me. They were just that good. And they wanted to be better than good. Never did any of them utter making money at vo. These are just pure actors. I absolutely appreciate the actor mindset is a foreign language to most pursuing vo today. But for animation? It is ALL about acting.
Last edited by Bob Bergen on Sun Aug 27, 2023 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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todd ellis A Zillion
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 10494 Location: little egypt
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2023 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough. We come at this thing from different directions. I don't consider myself an actor at all, and rarely use the term "voice actor" when forced to describe myself. I usually say, "I talk out loud for money." Which is as accurate as I can make it.
You, Sir, are a different animal - lots of animals - a pig, a hawk, a cat, a mouse ... heck, you're a whole zoo. You have a code. I can respect that.
ps - This ...
Quote: | You don't have to be successful at something to teach it. |
was definitely not directed at you. _________________ "i know philip banks": todd ellis
who's/on/1st?
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