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OC 703 - Thicker Panels or Air Gap?
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vkuehn
DC


Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 688
Location: Vernon now calls Wisconsin home

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

About four messages back, Bish offered some "golden" advice: In small spaces, sometimes there is no theory book or "white paper" to turn to. We just experiment and see what works in the peculiar space we are developing. Through another discussion group I hang out with some folks who work with much larger spaces. Churches, school auditoriums, concert venues. And when I ask them about adopting some favorite technique of theirs into a booth or small scale v-o studio, they all shrug their shoulders and say the spaces we use for v-o are unpredictable, and the material that will work best is hard to predict. Just try your pet idea and see if it works. If not, move on to the next idea.

All of that to say: Buff-A.... your use of carpet that way was a totally new concept to me. I can quote some text book rules/guidelines that would not be friendly to using carpet they way you suggested.... and yet, some of the normal rules just don't work in our small, small space. My space today is pretty much exclusively used in audio-book narration. I am looking for a different "tuning" of my space that what I would look for if I were doing radio commercials. I am working with an 10x12 space rather than a smaller booth. I am currently experimenting with adding some pieces of reflective thin (so it can vibrate with the sound) pieces of wood here and there to purposely create some reflection of higher frequencies. But I did bring in carpet to cover a hard wood floor. And now and then I mumble to myself: "Let me get this straight: you cover up something that is too reflective down there, but you mount a 'sound mirror' up here in the middle of all this absorptive material on the walls?" At that point I then mumble to my self: "Play back the recording with the eyes closed and ask George Whittam's favorite question: Does it sound good?"
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Buff-A



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Nashville

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
How about looking at building a booth the most 'utilitarian' way possible.

So, get two or three (or as many as needed) sets of metal shelving with wheels. Roll the shelves into a formation that represents your 'booth.' Then, drape carpeting on each side of the shelving units, from top to bottom (and over the top of the open area, if desired).

Now you have your booth, and not only does each 'wall' have double carpet to dampen sound, but you can actually USE the shelves for storage, which will only increase the sound dampening because of the mass of the items on the shelves.

And, since each section is completely movable/portable, you don't really need a door...just roll one of the units aside to get in or out.

OK, so you want even more sound isolation? Put pillows, blankets, or similar on all the shelves...which you don't even need to buy, since you probably have all this stuff in a closet anyway. Just move it here.

The end.
.
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vkuehn
DC


Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 688
Location: Vernon now calls Wisconsin home

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your portable shelves with soft stuff of various materials will give you some acoustical value.... but probably zero, zilch, nada ISOLATION. You may get a soft, no-echo sound, but the external noises that come into your space will pay no attention to this set-up.

Isolation from external sound is going to require MASS, solid, heavy materials with no gaps, no holes, no crack, no space under the racks where the wheels are.
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Buff-A



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Nashville

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
This is the most utilitarian booth possible, not the best one that could be built. This construction, if done carefully, can provide substantial acoustical value....as compared to putting foam on selected areas of wall, using a curved reflection filter behind the mic, etc. It works especially well compared to...doing nothing. And doesn't require special materials, or substantial money.

Stepping up to the next level requires a geometric leap in time and money. And stepping up to full isolation requires yet another geometric leap. I've been at this for years, so I do have solutions for every level.
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Yonie
CM


Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original discussion was in regards to treating an isolated booth, and I am fairly certain that movable gobos or feet of fabric wouldn't be a factor there.
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georgethetech
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 1846
Location: Topanga, CA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a pile of OC703, cut it in half, then on the diagonal and make a huge pile of triangles in the least annoying corner to eliminate. Cover that with fabric. Put single 2" layer on remaining walls, 2' off floor to 1' off ceiling.
Done. Small booths need BIG bass trapping, and this removes the least amount of useable "wing-span". Work sitting for best possible sound to keep mic away from the ceiling where bass propagates.

Do NOT allow ANY fibers of that OC703 loose in the booth, it's NASTY stuff. Make sure every inch of your panels, front AND back are sealed inside fabric.
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Darcy DeLorey



Joined: 03 Jan 2015
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It has been a blizzard here most of the week so catching up. I am very happy to return to find some excellent ideas.

I since built a 3x3ft 4" trap for the ceiling with OC703 from some much appreciated advice from Rob Ellis. It seems to have made a huge difference already.

Advice from the authority, Mr. Whittam is also a pleasant surprise!

I actually have 8 LENRD "knock off" foam bass traps of the same design and size of the Auralex flavour. Are there any thoughts on using them for corner trapping floor to ceiling in 2 corners or would the 703 in a single corner yield better results? I do like the thought of more "wingspan". I suppose they could be used in the joint where the wall meets the ceiling as George suggests 2" 703 starting a foot down from the ceiling.

Many thanks everyone, I truly appreciate the valuable conversation.
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Rob Ellis
M&M


Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2385
Location: Detroit

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

soundgun wrote:
Work sitting for best possible sound to keep mic away from the ceiling where bass propagates.


Did not know this. Another adjustment to make.
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Rob Ellis
M&M


Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 2385
Location: Detroit

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

George, do most of your clients sit, or do you have any that stand?

I have always stood and generally prefer to stand but I never knew that doing so might be exacerbating the small booth acoustic dynamic.
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georgethetech
The Gates of Troy


Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 1846
Location: Topanga, CA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a fun thing to try for yourself and hear which sounds better, and best of all, it's FREE and EASY! Smile
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Buff-A



Joined: 18 Oct 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Nashville

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
Earlier I posted a quick set-up for putting together a cheap and easy 'booth' that would create a somewhat serviceable environment if acoustic attenuation was all that you needed, but for some serious 'isolation' here's a way to get there - and with outstanding performance, I might add.

So, you design your booth...let's say, 4ft by 6ft, and 7ft high inside. Then send your design (with window and door cut-outs indicated) to a SIP fabricator. SIP, as in 'Structural Insulated Panels,'...which are widely used in the construction industry (in some areas). They custom-cut panels to any design you like. These panels will be a 'sandwich' of solid polyurethane foam between two layers of OSB (a type of plywood), and are incredibly strong structurally.

Here's one SIP provider (and I just called them for the current prices):
http://thermocore.com/
For a simple booth as described, you'll be ordering 6 panels (top, bottom, and four sides). They will work out your design for you, and they build the corners so they interlock (you secure with wood screws). They will pre-cut channels for wiring if you like.

Trust me, THIS 'booth' will not only be 'isolated' acoustically, but will be practically indestructible, and would be a great 'panic room' in case of hurricanes or whatever.

As long as you put a top and bottom on it, and make sure your door (and any windows) are up to the job, this will give you isolation that is quite significant. I'd recommend laying down some sort of isolation layer on the subsurface before setting up your booth, to keep from telegraphing sound through the bottom., but this could be something as simple as a carpet remnant, and/or carpet padding.

OK, so inside you'll still want to put acoustic foam or shapes in the usual areas, since the interior walls will be heavy OSB board, and though you have massive isolation from outside sound, you'll need to control interior reflections, as usual. And since the interior walls are made of heavy-duty OSB (wood) panels, you can drill/screw into it and mount shelves or whatever directly, without worrying about finding studs, since there are none.

As for price, this company charges $5.50/sq.ft for their 4 inch thick panels, so a booth that's 4x6 by 7 feet tall (and 4in. thick) would run about $900, and if you chose their thickest panel (8in thick; $8/sq.ft.), it would come to about $1,300.

Once set up, when you step inside it will seem a bit surreal (especially with the 8" thick panels!). NOTE: some companies sell panels up to 12" thick, or even more.

You could cover the outside (and/or inside) with sound-absorptive material, too, such as 5/8 Quiet-Rock (a type of sheet rock that is equal to about 10 sheets of ordinary sheet rock for sound absorption). This treatment would be called for if you have a lot of low-frequency sound to deal with.

If you build a booth with 8" SIPs, and with 5/8 Quiet-Rock applied inside and out, you'll have more isolation than many recording studios. Very likely this would be overkill, especially since this would be built indoors to start with. But maybe you have trains, plains, and automobiles nearby...

With SIPs, you don't worry about having to cut anything, or having gaps, or loose material getting into your gear, etc. When assembled, this will be a monolithic structure that will last a lifetime. And of course it can be disassembled easily. Just make sure you open the door once in a while, as it will be air-tight as well!

.
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JohnV
Contributor IV


Joined: 25 Feb 2016
Posts: 131
Location: Md/DC

PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just $.25 worth... being in the process of building two small soundwork rooms into a townhouse basement and thus having spent bizarre-to-normal-people amounts of time digesting Gervais' stunning (and comprehensive) book, the air gap thing is real and good... and just to be perverse, I would put 2" 703 panels ACROSS ALL THE CORNERS... the varying (and deeper) gap depth being beneficial.. or maybe across two 'front' corners and one flat across the back (with gap) and then try facing either way to see what you like... it's a cheap and pretty much no-lose experiment! here's a very good 2-part DIY thing on rough vocal booth tuning... https://youtu.be/HdEYNdzi4kw
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Pam
The Thirteenth Floor


Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 1306
Location: Chicago, Il

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add to George's caution about putting all the 703's in fabric, also take into consideration the off-gassing of all that fiberglass and chemicals in a very small space. Maybe look for natural fiber solutions?
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