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Lee Gordon
A Zillion


Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 6843
Location: West Hartford, CT

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sacks of onions. And that's my best offer.
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11046
Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artiste - Magna Vox has spoken and I find myself in the fortunate position of not attaching any value to his opinion. NEVER trust a man who knows someone who owns a banjo and can probably play it in anger.

Meanwhile, Oxen for McDonalds? Never!! If it's meat you're interested in go for the guys who is out back making fries OR a Strawberry shake as there is more value and meat in either of them.

Top Info - A six figure client is one who has offered you six different figures by way of a fee for a VO job, all lower than a snake's belly.
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Leslie Humble
Contributor IV


Joined: 03 Jan 2012
Posts: 145
Location: Cape Coral Fl

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Euphemism and I'm for Usem.

Now I've forgotten what this post was about. But I'm trying to keep up with you guys. However I did come away thinking I'm for it.
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Darren Altman
Cinquecento


Joined: 17 Oct 2009
Posts: 551
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, 2 pages of nonsense! I'll ask a sensible question!! Wink

The stumbling block for a lot of VOs seems to be rates. There are frequent posts on forums about what to quote for specific reads and I have been asked by colleagues for advice, but most of the time I really don't know the answer.

When I do sessions for my agent, for a corporate job it is an hours session fee of £200 and obviously no usage. Unless it is pages and pages, that is normally enough time to get the script done. When I get asked to quote for a corporate job, should that be my benchmark too, regardless of the length? *I know the difference will be me having to edit my work on top.

I was chatting to UK VO artist Mike Cooper (who does a LOT of narration for tv) and he knows exactly how many words he reads a minute, how long it takes him to edit and can work out his fee accordingly, he even charges by half page as he is so accurate with his timings. When I get a non-broadcast script, can you advise me as to the best and most accurate way to quote a client? For example, is there an average number of words per page of A4 and how long it takes you to read? Do you charge a flat session fee per hour, regardless of the length of the script, or do you know exactly how long it will take you to read and edit X number of words? Conversly, if you are given a time/length of the script, can you roughly work out how many words that will be? I'm keeping a note of every corporate/e-learning job I've done, the number of words and fee to get an average, but there really is no real parity.

What about web videos? I get a lot of requests for "a 1 minute video narration to be shown on the client's website and youtube." Is this a flat session fee, or less as the length is so short? The same goes for TV adverts. If an ad is shown on satelite channels that are not the main networks, do we simply ask what the TVRs are and go to http://www.usefee.tv/ ? This site is only correct as of 2007.

I guess if you've been in the business for years, then you just get to know what to charge for a speific usage, but unless the fee is dictated, I find myself making an educated guess, as opposed to confidently quoting a fee which I know is competetive in the market place, without underselling myself or the industry.

Apologies if this post reeks of being naive, but 2011 was my first year as a "full time" ISDN voiceover and I gave up teaching drums at 2 schools to make the leap - you know my investments in my gear and studio Philip. I feel that if I had a solid grasp of what to charge for all the different mediums, I wouldn't wrestle with under or over-charging clients.
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Lizden
A Zillion


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 8856
Location: The dark recesses of my mind

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah! So we're getting serious!

For narrations, I work it out like this:
1) script comes in from the client
2) I do a word count.
3) Based on 150 words per recorded minute (which is pretty much my speed),
I can figure out how long the finished piece will be
1500 words = 10 FINISHED minutes
4500 words = 30 FINISHED minutes
9000 words = 60 FINISHED minutes

4) I multiply the finished minutes x 2 to calculate recording time
1500 words = 10 FINISHED minutes x 2 = 20 minutes to record
4500 words = 30 FINISHED minutes x 2 = 30 minutes to record
9000 words = 60 FINISHED minutes x 2 = 2 hours to record

4) I multiply the finished minutes x 4 to calculate editing time
1500 words = 10 FINISHED minutes x 4 = 40 minutes to edit
4500 words = 30 FINISHED minutes x 4 = 2 hours to edit
9000 words = 60 FINISHED minutes x 4 = 4 hours to edit

4) You add it all up:
1500 words = 10 FINISHED minutes = 60 minutes to produce
4500 words = 30 FINISHED minutes = 2.5 hours to produce
9000 words = 60 FINISHED minutes = 6 hours to produce

(Or you can just take the finished minutes time & multiply by 6 Wink )
I just wanted you to see how I came up with that Smile

In terms of rate, my minimum is for "up to 10 minutes" of finished audio which comes out to an hour of my time.

Figure out what an hour of your time is worth (mine has gone up since I first started Wink ) and figure out the rest in increments
I have a rate for:
up to 10 minutes of finished audio
up to 15 minutes of finished audio
up to 20 minutes of finished audio
up to 30 minutes of finished audio
up to 45 minutes of finished audio
up to 60 minutes of finished audio
...and anything over an hour of finished audio starts the cycle again.

Again, figure out the first number:
What is an hour of my time worth and go from there.

So, start with an "up to 10 minutes of finished audio" rate of $300 and see if that works for you.
Maybe $250 feels more comfortable.
Maybe $450 feels better to you.

I have my rate, you need to find the one that works for you & keeps clients coming back.
At least...that's the way I do it for long form narration.

Negotiations can & do happen but this gives me a benchmark to work from, and lets me figure out pretty quickly what I will & will not accept as payment

Laugh
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English/French Bilingual VO w/ ISDN
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Darren Altman
Cinquecento


Joined: 17 Oct 2009
Posts: 551
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Liz, you star! That's very useful to know and very helpful indeed, thank you so much. That's exactly the type of answer I was after: a solid grasp of exactly what to charge per word/minutes finished, produced audio. Smile

Out of interest, do others work the same way?
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11046
Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never charge per word and if I am ever offered a per word rate I will always let the client know that I have a minimum session fee.

As a general rule everything is "north" of my minimum session fee with the exception of local radio commercials for UK stations which are all priced at the Equity (union) minimum regardless of whether the VO is a member or not.

I make no distinction between editing time on voice time for corporate (self record) jobs and always let clients know that it is a waste of money to pay me $300 per hour to do a $50 per hour job. Usually corporates take about an hour from start to finish so I may as well edit from a cost point of view because the client has paid for an hour so they may as well get some work out of me for thier money.

In my client base I have companies for whom I do deals because they are good for my business stability and make financial sense for all concerned. Volume and regularity come into play in these cases, works really well too. My best "did 'em a favour" client paid me over $125,000 last year ...I'm a martyr to my own generosity some times.
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Lizden
A Zillion


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 8856
Location: The dark recesses of my mind

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I don't charge per word either, I just use it as a guide to help me figure out how long the whole project will take me.

Glad that it helped Darren!

And Banksey, you are SO right.
Volume & regularity IS the name of the game.
I have IVR clients that I charge less per script for, but who come back so often, that they are my best clients billing wise.
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Liz de Nesnera O.A.V. ~ Livin' The VO Dream!
English/French Bilingual VO w/ ISDN
HireLiz.com / liz@hireliz.com
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Mandy Nelson
MMD


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
Posts: 2894
Location: Wicked Mainah

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Professor,

I am going to do a serious of long and tedious sessions. The good producers said I can use them for my reel. I'm so excited. My question is, will it be ok for me to eat the donuts at the studio? I don't want to over step my bounds.

Sincerely,
Confused Talker in Mass
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006 member of the Sisterhood of the Traveling Mic. Bonded by sound.

Manfillappsoc: The Mandy and Philip mutual appreciation Society. Who's in your network?

Have you seen my mic closet? ~ me to my future husband
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Philip Banks
Je Ne Sais Quoi


Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 11046
Location: Portgordon, Scotland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Confused Talker in Mass
The Tesco supermarket in Buckie sells bags of 5 for £1 which suggests to me that not only should you eat some but the exact quantity.
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Lee Gordon
A Zillion


Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 6843
Location: West Hartford, CT

PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mandy Nelson wrote:
will it be ok for me to eat the donuts at the studio


You've worked at a studio where the agency account reps didn't devour all the donuts before the voice talent could get to them? I'm impressed!

(Hey Mandy, don't they have a funny way of spelling "Tedeschi's" in Buckie?)
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Voice President of the United States
www.leegordonproductions.com
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mcm
Smart Kitteh


Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 2600
Location: w. MA, USA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darren Altman wrote:
is there an average number of words per page of A4


What is A4?
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Lizden
A Zillion


Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 8856
Location: The dark recesses of my mind

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A4 is the European equivalent of the US 8.5" x 11" / letter sized page of paper.
A4 is a little narrower & a little longer, but just about the same size as our letter size.

Darren, I use 250 words per page as a measure.
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Liz de Nesnera O.A.V. ~ Livin' The VO Dream!
English/French Bilingual VO w/ ISDN
HireLiz.com / liz@hireliz.com
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Lee Gordon
A Zillion


Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 6843
Location: West Hartford, CT

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcm wrote:

What is A4?


It's the road Darren would take from London if he wanted to drive west to Bath or Bristol. Wink
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Lee Gordon, O.A.V.
Voice President of the United States
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Twitter: @LeeGordonVoice
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Darren Altman
Cinquecento


Joined: 17 Oct 2009
Posts: 551
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HAHAHA!! It's funny coz it's true ; )
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